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Culture War Roundup for the week of November 27, 2023

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The point is that a polity has the right to decide who can immigrate, and the failure of the founding stock to limit immigration to X,Y,Z groups does not compel the present polity to permit further immigration. And the fact that some people may be hypocrites or some people are unwilling to bite the bullet and say that their own Irish/Italian/German ancestors should have been forbidden to immigrate does not mean arguments against immigration - even voiced by those descendants of past immigration - are uncompelling.

It does mean those arguments are uncompelling to THEM, however. Because it means having to condemn their own ancestors, which lots of people are unwilling to do. And those who are usually think that some form of reparations should be made. That's kind of my point, most of the people who acknowledge what their ancestors did was wrong, end up on the progressive side. It's why we see alt-right types here rail against Conservatives for not wanting to stop all immigration, only illegal immigration. Most Americans have a vested interest in regarding (legal) immigration as being a moral good. Because for many of them it's the only reason they are where they are. Sure that isn't a logical argument, but feelings trump facts here.

If you want the current polity to actually limit immigration, that's what you have to contend with. From my perspective if the US decides to limit or not limit immigration, that is largely up to them. If they want to go with the nation of immigrants myth that they are emotionally invested in, that is entirely their right to do so, whether I agree or not.

The presence of an unrepentant thief who says, "thievery should be punished, but not me, I'm one of the good ones" does indeed call into question his motivation to make that argument. Largely it's what the non thieves think that should hold most sway. The thief by his very nature is unable to be objective about it.

It does mean those arguments are uncompelling to THEM, however. Because it means having to condemn their own ancestors, which lots of people are unwilling to do.

But so what? So people don't condemn their ancestors when they should. Now what? Doors open, come one come all?

If you want the current polity to actually limit immigration, that's what you have to contend with. From my perspective if the US decides to limit or not limit immigration, that is largely up to them. If they want to go with the nation of immigrants myth that they are emotionally invested in, that is entirely their right to do so, whether I agree or not.

Believe me, I acknowledge what I have to contend with, and I lament it.

The presence of an unrepentant thief who says, "thievery should be punished, but not me, I'm one of the good ones" does indeed call into question his motivation to make that argument. Largely it's what the non thieves think that should hold most sway. The thief by his very nature is unable to be objective about it.

Right, so forget him and look at his actual argument. You seem to not want to look at the actual argument and only focus on the person making it.

Right, so forget him and look at his actual argument. You seem to not want to look at the actual argument and only focus on the person making it.

No, you misunderstand. I am saying that for most people that is how they look at it. Hence why they make the attacks you were wondering why they made. The correctness of the argument you are making is mostly moot (and I haven't commented on it for just that reason).

Your question is answered by how people operate, that they use emotion and pattern matching etc. So you or I making the same argument as someone else will get different reactions. In other words, identity does indeed matter. If you want to make arguments that will advance your cause, understanding and accounting for that is important. A white Canadian (or Brit!) immigrant making an argument against immigration is going to be a hard sell, regardless of whether the argument is 100% correct or not. How right you are is less important than how right you are perceived to be.

Gotchya, sorry I misunderstood. Your point is certainly well taken.