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Look, I'm old enough that I remember the tail end of the Sexual Revolution becoming aware of it as going into my teen years. The attitudes then about men versus women were nuts by modern standards, and I don't mean "crazy ultra-feminists hate all men" standards, I mean "treating the other person as a human" standards. The attitudes parodied here where guys were tough and macho and women loved it, and the notion was to be sexually available because this was the new era of doing away with hang-ups. Men did benefit from it, so it does make me smile wryly to read all the crying now that the shoe is on the other foot.
Is it great that women can now be emotionally abusive to men? No. But in general guys are now getting a taste of the medicine that women had to put up with, and they don't like it. Newsflash: neither did women, hence feminism. "Women have the power in the dating market! Women are too picky! Women spurn nice guys and go for the alphas!" Yeah, the sexual market place used to be a male buyer's market, now it's a female one. And men can't shove off all the blame onto women, because men wanted to eat their cake and have it: women willing and available for casual sex, no demands for committed relationships or marriage, and access to novelty. Women were then conditioned into 'if guys can do it, so can you'. And now we have the results, where nobody is happy save for a few who can command premium attention, be they men or women.
If you're going to complain that women are not having babies, you need to look at the other side of "where do you get babies" because it's not out of thin air. Why don't women want marriage and kids? What are the social forces driving this? A lot of it is economic - unless you have one partner with a lot of money, it's not really feasible to be a stay at home wife and mother. If both of you have to work, then there's little chance to have kids because it all needs to be planned around education and careers, and then when you do, you're paying for childcare which is pretty much eating up one of your wages. You won't get a mortgage without two incomes, and renting is another problem (can you even find a place to rent, and if you do how high is the rent, and will the lease allow children?)
I'm not trying to blame men, I'm saying that there are no easy answers and putting all the blame on women alone is as unfair as putting all the blame on men alone.
Most of your post still focuses on the narrative of blaming men continually though as getting a taste of their own medicine, with one sided narratives which is the classic far left/feminist narrative with the twist that you don't see agency for the women with sexual revolution.
Your message includes excessive browbeating against men, which is the last thing we want.
You genuinely are repeatedly trying to have this discussion with me, of how blaming men is legitimate because of past sins, when my point that I have been discussing was that such an approach is not legitimate way to approach issues to begin with.
While I am not interested in forcing women to have babies and favor sensible changes that create a situation where more people are in monogamous relationships and have more children, I am in favor of society marginalizing factions promoting these narratives of one sided oppression and permanent revenge and getting even, which are not society's best interests but also sadistic glee against men is bad on its own right. Being against one's fathers, brothers, sons, and husbands, who are permanently blamed as being permanently responsible as men based on slanted one sided narratives, is not what we need.
The issues with that are numerous. An additional one is this: I don't accept the one sided story, and one where women don't have agency, but even if someone was to grant it, which I don't, then how are current men to blame for what other men did previously? So, it is another example of how such movement and narrative is destructive and just irrationally spiteful.
Ironically, what you argue fits perfectly the point of the blog post I previously linked: https://www.highly-respected.com/p/stop-blaming-men-for-the-marriage
Bellow you argue the following:
Economic expenses of parenthood aren't fully explanatory because even in societies with decent wages and high welfare to parents have some these issues. Plus the issue isn't' just births but relationships and decline there too. The economic issue is probably a factor in relation with expectations and other issues I promoted related to education first as a model and so on. Various of these issues also relate with social norms that both men and women follow, not everything is more related to female behavior and incentives specifically.
Ultimately from the article I linked I want to highlight this which goes further than just blaming women:
You have been consistently mischaracterizing the idea that men are getting a raw deal in the current arrangement as blaming women exclusively, and are reacting to opposition to things like the bellow
This narrative does blame some men too, you know.
Although the issue isn't to prioritize blaming women, but to change things. If things are bad, and part of this relates to this idea of women not settling early enough and chasing the top, which is worse for men than for women for various reasons explained, including women dating up and benefiting from affirmative action, this is an entirety fair issue to observe. However, even this explanation does show that women also lose in some ways from this arrangement. They have less children than polled to desire, and the men they chase also often refuse to settle down. Then there are those issues that relate to both male and female behavior.
Maybe there is a room for trying to change current male behavior specifically, in addition to changes of both men and women but I agree with the article I linked that it can't come in the same one sided demand where the arrangement remains hostile to men, but only demands are made for men to step up. It can't be motivated by the same anti male feminist perspective where as you see it, men are tasting their own medicine.
At the end of the day people who care about improving things and have specific goals like a society with more healthy monogamous relationships and at least replacement fertility rate, should change things. Those who want instead to focus on retaining a sex negative feminist consensus are probably going to be an obstacle to that. Also, a level of sympathy for groups "getting a taste of their own medicine" is going to be helpful to promote the correct policies.
Yeah, and if men want that, they are going to have to face up to it that they can't eat their cake and have it: be 'sowing their wild oats' in their 20s with a bunch of hot, willing chicks, then settle down in their 30s with a modest wifey to pop out kids. If you want hot chicks willing to have casual sex with you, you are going to have a culture where women will expect the same sexual market value as men. If you don't want a culture of promiscuity and infertility, you are going to have to change back to the old values of "respectable men don't fuck around and will try and wait for marriage".
It isn't as if the current social arrangement is only held up by men in general wanting to have their cake and eat it. You really are fixated on men at primary to blame movers and shakers and as if such things are just an adversarial negotiation between men and women. Actually some of male influence has also to do with male feminists, so it isn't' as if men prioritize in a self serving manner just male interest and there is the influence of women too and what they want. But I agree that things changing where we have a prioritization of marriage over constant dating life, is going to involve both men and women doing that.
Again, not blaming men as the primary movers and shakers. But in all the "birth rate dropping, women should be having more babies" discussion I see, nobody is talking about the other side of the equation - the fathers of these babies. Women are not having babies for reasons of convenience, but so are men. If you want more marriage, stable marriage, and more babies, you need to sort out the culture and social values and that includes guys as well as dolls. Men also have expectations, standards, and conditioning from wider society around marriage and family (which culturally has shifted from "early marriage, be main breadwinner, have two to four kids" to "develop your career, enjoy yourself while still young, mature adulthood is put off until thirties, kids are an expensive drag which prevent you from spending your money on having fun and buying stuff").
But I did just talk about the other side of the equation too and even agreed with you on that. Why don't you just accept this and drop the idea that nobody is willing to talk about both men and women behaving in accordance to obligations that apply to both?
It isn't accurate that nobody is willing to do that, since that has has been part of this discussion. It is also true that I offered some things that apply more towards women, such as that their benefit from affirmative action depresses relationships
It doesn't seem like your insistence on promoting this narrative, changes even when people promote such things first, or agree with such points.
I agree again, and I also promoted the change of societal expectations and education and career first, for both men and women. It isn't true that the entire discussion is for men to have their cake and eat it too.
And of course, it is especially unreasonable to be blaming men in general for being the obstacle because they want to have their cake and eat it too.
I think we're in agreement more on social issues than we're disagreeing, I'm just saying that it wasn't women alone who decided they wanted this new state of affairs, men were happy for it too until they lost the former privileges and were living under the new dispensation. Now they're blaming women for it being all their fault as if no man ever went along with "wow, you mean the Pill means I can fuck women as much as I want and no babies and having to settle down and marry only one? sign me up!"
One the problems with you insisting with this unnecessary story that bitterly blames men is that you treat different generations as the same men. Another, is that there were other things bad towards men that men went along with due to feminist ideology, or browbeating. Certainly, complaints didn't start in the 2020s!
Again, to treat the entire discourse as blaming women alone, is inaccurate. Especially when feminist paradigm is definitely anti male, and at such, even those with an even handed response are going to be critical of that. You seem to be promoting a sex negative type of feminist narrative here.
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