07mk
1mo ago
It's hard to say, given how the boundaries of "politically correct" has changed in recent years. In the recent The Little Mermaid CGI/live action remake by Disney, they edited lines from Ursula's villain song where she was manipulating the heroine Ariel into giving up her voice in exchange for legs by telling her how men like women who stay quiet and meek, since the notion that women ought to be quiet and meek is offensive. So it seems that certain views are so offensive that even villains being presented as being villainous ought not express them. Pedophilia and rape could fall in that camp.
That said, not having seen Part 2, I'd guess that wasn't a meaningful factor, if at all, in the decision. Having listened to the Dune audiobook a couple years ago after having read it a couple decades ago, I recall thinking that the sexual perversion of the Harkonnens didn't add a whole lot to the narrative. In a film with limited time, it seems reasonable to cut it, or perhaps modify it to a less distracting form.
07mk
1mo ago
You've probably heard already, but Nier: Automata requires at least 3 or 4 playthroughs in order to get the full grasp of the setting and story. The first playthrough should only be like 10-20 hours and the next ones much shorter.
Whether or not the juice is worth the squeeze should come down to taste. I'll say, I can at least understand why the story gets hyped up so much. It's not a spoiler to say that there are twists and turns, and the philosophical musings are at the appropriate level of thought provoking for a game of this sort.
07mk
1mo ago
I started playing Elden Ring last week. I'm about 20 hours and 6 bosses in, with Godrick the last one I defeated. It's about as good as I'd heard, feeling essentially like Bloodborne (that and Sekiro being the only other From Soft games I've played - Nioh is the only non-From Soft soulslike I've played) but expanded to open world scale.
I always felt there was a fractal quality to the level design in Bloodborne and Sekiro, with how different forking paths attach to each other to create larger areas that are forked from other larger areas, and I feel like it really shows in the open overworld of Elden Ring. It almost feels like they took one of their Bloodborne levels, scaled it up by a couple orders of magnitude, and then put in other Bloodborne levels into the various castles and temples and fortresses and such that serve as important progression points around the world.
As I play, I find myself simultaneously marveling at how brilliant the level design is for balancing the feelings of open freedom and linear progression and being saddened at how other devs can't seem to do the same. Obviously, good level design takes a lot of work, but also, none of what From Soft does with their levels seems particularly difficult to copy and execute. They keep things feeling more open by constantly throwing forks in the road of players, letting many of them accumulate before any one of those paths hits a dead end. And almost always, one of those paths open up to some whole other area with a fresh new set of forks to choose from. They entice players to explore by placing items in areas that are visible but not accessible, sometimes remaining inaccessible until dozens of hours of progression later. And they do still place enough dead ends - true dead ends with no reward, no new information learned, not even an impressive visual to admire - to keep the levels feeling like a real place. All those forks that led up to such dead ends keep them from being unsatisfying, and the fact that, often enough, you do get rewarded by an entirely new world to explore makes the exploration addicting.
Doing all these well almost definitely takes a ton of work and testing, but devs often don't seem to even make an effort at doing them okay. I feel like, most often, 3rd person action games have levels that are either super linear or just fully wide-open, and when they do make an attempt at this forking-paths style design, they stop at just 2 or 3 iterations instead of letting it really get twisty and labyrinthine like From Soft likes to do.
Also, the bosses I've fought are as good as I've come to expect from From Soft, at least this early in the game. Those are always by far my favorite parts of 3rd person action games like this one. I'm expecting that the difficulty and variety of bosses will ramp up as I get deeper in, though, since Margit, Leonine, Erdtree Avatar, Godrick, and even the Ancient Hero of Zapor all felt like variations of each other to some extent.
07mk
1mo ago
Based on my own limited experience with Disco Elysium, I'd agree that it's not particularly "woke," and whatever political or ideological messaging it had seemed to be in the form of "fictional character has this opinion" rather than "this fictional narrative serves as a lesson for why this opinion is the correct IRL." I'll add, though, in my personal experience was that the only people who ever called the game leftist were leftists praising the game for pushing forward leftist (not necessarily "woke" or progressive) messaging. Such folks were the only reason I'd heard of the game and got interested enough in it to start playing, actually.
07mk
1mo ago
Except that there’s no reason not to make the game good (or movie, or TV show) actually good at the same time if they were actually interested in doing so. The new ugly women in the game don’t take so many resources that they can’t make the rest of the game work as a game. It doesn’t cost so much that they then can’t afford servers for the game (or couldn’t simply make the game playable offline).
Indeed, some games that are criticized for things like unnecessarily masculine women are well received by many gamers for being otherwise good, such as the Horizon games and The Last of Us: Part 2 (neither received anywhere near universal praise or disdain). But it's not as if making a good game is just something someone can choose to do; even if every resource in the company was directed with laser-like focus on the goal of "make a good game," I'm doubtful that the odds are good that they'd create a good game. If priorities are split between that and injecting messaging into the game - and particularly the perspective is a "woke" one where the ideological messaging is considered to supersede other factors when determining how "good" a game is - then it becomes that much harder. Who knows how much the "woke"-ish messaging of the Saints Row reboot contributed to its many issues both with bugs and just basic game design, but given how much the entire narrative and tone of the game was steeped in it, I imagine it had a more parasitic effect than what the character models in those other aforementioned games did.
And I think honestly this kind of thing is doing more to turn off audiences to “diverse” choices because they’ve been so often used to deflect from bad entertainment and media that people see it as a red flag for poor quality. And it doesn’t have to be that way if they’d simply make a good product around the DEI.
This is true, but the entire point that they're pushing is that they're already making a good product by injecting DEI and other "woke" messaging into the games. If players don't consider it so, then that means that they are wrong, and we need to put in more messaging until they get it. At their core, the ideologues who push this stuff truly believe that their ideology can never fail, it can only ever be failed. As ideological and political proselytizers, they see themselves as having no responsibility to check how effective their messaging is and to make adjustments based on that checking; rather, their only responsibility is to spread the message in the way the ideology tells them to, and if that doesn't work, then it's everyone else's fault.
It is a cliche at this point, that people labeled as sexist/racist keep pointing out that there are plenty of great works with diverse characters from yesteryear in gaming as well as in TV and film. "Woke" is a response and rejection of that; the idea that, in order to be praised, a work with women or minorities should also be good by traditional measures such as "entertainment" or "thought provoking" is, in itself, sexist/racist/White Supremacist/bigoted/etc. Rather, because we've now "awakened" to how the most salient way humans relate to each other in our society is through power dynamics between different demographic groups, we should realize that simply having these people represented in a positive way in entertainment works intrinsically make the entertainment works better. And, again, if the audience doesn't buy it, then the beatings will continue until morale improves.
07mk
1mo ago
We're supposed to believe Lex Luthor, of all people, wrote this?
Frankly, I don't think we are. I think we are supposed to praise it, and whether or not we believe it isn't really a consideration.
07mk
1mo ago
I do recall liking Kim the best during my 8-10 hours in the game, just for being the reliable straight man most of the time, though I also found him a bit on the dull side. Some of the other characters had really fun and outlandish personalities, but what got me for those was how much the writing just took me out of the game. It constantly made me picture some writer sitting at his desk typing out all this clever dialogue out in between break sessions to sniff his own farts. To some extent, I'm consciously aware that all video game writing is created this way, but when I think of writing in works like this being "good," part of it is that it momentarily, and perhaps only on an emotional level, makes me forget that the people I see on screen are merely marionettes being puppeteered by an author for the purpose of manipulating my emotions and instead makes me believe that this is a real person with a real history in some real world expressing himself. I want the writing to manipulate my emotions, not to remind me that it's trying to manipulate my emotions.
(Aside: this is a major part of the criticism - tangentially "woke"-related* - of the drop in quality of writing in the MCU, where everyone is a clever quip-machine all the time. When a handful of high profile characters like Tony Star talk this way, it was funny and somewhat plausible, but when almost every major character talks like this, the suspension of disbelief is harder to maintain, on top of just being tiresome).
To be fair, I think the voice acting, particularly the (likely intentionally?) overdramatic ones for the various emotions or characteristics of yours who would speak to you, didn't help. And the game started right off the bat with such internal monologue and never clawed its way back in my eyes ears. So I may be unfairly docking it points for that instead of just the writing.
* Obviously there's nothing about the "woke" ideology that insists on stilted writing in and of itself. But it's still tangentially related, because the "woke" influence being discussed is modern political messaging being inserted into the writing for the purpose of influencing the audience's behaviors, and due to the totalizing nature of the "woke" mindset, the authors have trouble doing this with a soft-enough touch to feel natural within the fictional world. Which then reminds the player that they're being lectured to by a script writer, rather than being immersed in a fictional world.
07mk
1mo ago
I'd say Ico is probably the one game with the best writing I've played (aside: don't read the novelization Ico: Castle in the Mist; it takes a 5 hour game with a fairy-tale-basic story about a cursed boy and girl, a castle, and an evil queen, and stretches it to 400+ pages, including the first 100+ focusing on the religious back story of the boy and his village), though Bloodborne came close in the similar minimalistic style. For a game with lots of dialogue, Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis stands out to me as one with particularly good writing, though I'd probably place the original Knights of the Old Republic and Odin Sphere at around the same level.
07mk
1mo ago
by game standards it's certainly in the 99th percentile, I think it would be hard to dispute that.
As they say, there is no accounting for taste. I'd say it's probably close to 30th percentile, only avoiding going lower due to generally being coherent and internally consistent, grammatically correct, and lacking typos.
07mk
1mo ago
good game writing, like Disco Elysium
This... this is perhaps the single most offensive opinion I've ever read on this forum.
07mk
1mo ago
I think this is why people are really using DEI. It’s a great way to deflect attention and criticism from your story or game because any time someone says they don’t like the product, you can always default back to “the fans are just mad about inclusion.”
I honestly think you're impugning too much intent behind this sort of thing. I suspect a few people might be self-aware and cynical enough to do this on purpose, but given how such a defense is only good for the ego and not for profit, I think the people making these decisions are mostly doing so out of a genuine desire to intentionally manipulate the audience into being more friendly to their ideology. And when it backfires as it so often does, in part because time and resources on that inevitably trades off against time and resources for crafting a good game with good mechanics and good narrative, they have a convenient way to deflect attention. And at this point, in 2024, this way of deflecting attention has become not just common, but downright cliche, and so they have a neat playbook to follow that they see fellow ideologues in the field turning to to protect their egos. I doubt it goes any deeper than.
07mk
1mo ago
I don't really play AAA games very much, so the actual effect of Sweet Baby on those games is not very salient to me, but when reading and hearing about it, I can't help but notice that they usually aren't giving many examples of of aspects of these games that people really think are bad because of Sweet Baby. In fact, before this controversy, the main thing gamers were complaining about was in-game transactions.
I think there's no actual way to know what Sweet Baby Inc influenced in these games unless you work for SBI, the company, or there are leaks. Before SBI was put on as a face to the concept, though, the "woke" direction of the industry had been criticized for a long time, so the issue was never SBI specifically or even companies like SBI, but rather that devs actually seemed to want their narratives to receive influence from the type of ideology espoused by people working at or defending SBI.
One recent fairly prominent example of a game that SBI had worked on according to that curator (but whose exact influence is a mystery AFAIK) was Suicide Squad: Kill the Justice League which, as the title implies, involved killing the Justice League heroes, where the one heroine Wonder Woman apparently got a noble and dignified death with the male heroes getting fairly muted or pathetic ones (apparently there was some extra controversy cuz the Batman VA died before the game was released, and he got a rather unceremonial death). The game was apparently shit for many non-narrative-related reasons, and this kind of thing could easily be chalked up to coincidence, but it does fit very neatly into a pattern we've seen in a lot of visual media of legacy franchises the last 5-10 years.
There have been a number of mini-controversies over patterns like this, such as (mainly western) devs making heroines more masculine/ugly than players tend to prefer seeing, with the Horizon games, The Last of Part 2, and even the aforementioned Suicide Squad with Harley Quinn compared to her depiction in the old Arkham games by the same dev, being examples. Last year's Resident Evil 4 remake was criticized for cutting out 2 of the best lines in the game: "Well, if it isn't the bitch in the red dress" and "I see the president has equipped his daughter with ballistics," but the game was well received for being good. On the other hand, the previous year's Saints Row reboot was criticized for making the protagonists soft 20-something roommates getting into crime to pay back their student debt while rebelling against the current societal order or whatever, along with censoring in-game stores like Freckle Bitches to FB's.
I don't think any of these rose to the level of being a major, or anything more than a tiny, controversy, and it was the rare person who was actually worked up over any of it, but certainly lots of people noticed the pattern of the direction things seemed to be going and were making some noise about how devs were just making games worse for no good reason. The SBI Detected curator probably created a focal point where players who were noticing this could direct their ire, but, again, the issue was never SBI specifically or even the specific devs that they worked with.
What people are mostly talking about is how their employees conduct themselves on social media. And even though the way they often conduct themselves is unprofessional and dumb, It's also understandable when there's a hundred thousand people telling you how bad your work is and trying to stop people from doing business with you.
I actually don't think it's understandable. Like you said, they're conducting themselves in an unprofessional way. They are industry professionals, and there's a standard of conduct they ought to hold themselves to as professionals. I'd say it's understandable only from a cynical perspective, as an attempt to build a "we're getting harassed" narrative out of whole cloth to build sympathy.
07mk
1mo ago
True, but there's still a difference between "this person suffers from a delusion" and "this person is deliberately lying for attention."
I don't think there's much of a difference, though. One of the most common techniques that people use to deliberately lie for attention is to genuinely believe the lie before repeating the lie to others. This is a very clever way to avoid any of the guilt or shame that many/most people experience when they deceive people, while getting all of the benefits of being deceptive. Lying to oneself so well that one believes the lie is pretty much the same thing as deluding oneself.
07mk
1mo ago
This could be a "no need to outrun the bear, only need to outrun my friend" situation. There's no true safety from the censors, but if you're more censorious than the other guy, perhaps you can escape notice while the other guy is getting metaphorically mauled.
07mk
1mo ago
however conversely, when it accurately captures the experience of human despair in all its facets, I consider it secondary whether its despair is modelled by a level of a neurochemical transmitter or a 16-bit floating point number. I for one don't feel molecules.
Well, the question then becomes what is meant by "accurately captures the experience of human despair in all its facets." Since we still currently lack a true test for consciousness, we don't have a way of actually checking if "all its facets" is truly "all its facets." But perhaps that part doesn't matter; after all, we also have no way of checking if other humans are conscious or can suffer, and all we can do is guess based on their behavior and projecting ourselves onto them. If an AI responds to stimuli in a way that's indistinguishable from a human, then perhaps we ought to err on the side of caution and presume that they're conscious, much like how we treat other humans (as well as animals)?
There's another argument to be made that, because humans aren't perfectly rational creatures, we can't cleanly separate [AI that's indistinguishable from a suffering human] and [being that actually truly suffers], and the way we treat the former will inevitably influence the way we treat the latter. And as such, even if these AI weren't sentient, treating them like the mindless slaves they are would cause humans to become more callous towards the suffering of actual humans. One might say this is another version of the "video games/movies/porn makes people more aggressive IRL" argument, where the way we treat fictional avatars of humans is said to inform and influence the way we treat real humans. When dealing with AI that is literally indistinguishable from a human, I can see this argument having some legs.
07mk
1mo ago
I agree that it'd be a massive waste and overreach if and only if AIs are not humanlike. I hope you would also agree that it'd be an atrocity to keep as mind-controlled slaves AIs that are, in fact, humanlike. I mean, at that point you're conflating wokescolds with "not cool with you literally bringing back actual slavery".
Is the contention that a humanlike AGI would necessarily have subjective experience and/or suffering? Or perhaps that, sans a true test for consciousness, that we ought to err on the side of caution and treat it as if it does have conscious experience if it behaves in a way that appears to have conscious experience (i.e. like a human)?
07mk
2mo ago
Chris Hemsworth is a Hollywood star with a physique that's out of reach for almost anyone. Someone with his exact same physique but not his stardom also wouldn't turn nearly as many heads. "Look what they need to mimic just a fraction of our power" is a quotation that comes to mind.
07mk
2mo ago
t's kinda funny that 5 (or 5 Royal specifically I suppose) is the best Persona game mechanically (in my mind anyway), but that as I play backwards through the older games I feel like the PThieves are the least interesting characters. I feel like 3 and 4 have the group dynamics nailed down better. Plus Koromaru > Sparkly Bishie Teddie > Teddie >>>>>>>>> Morgana, you can't change my mind on the animal/mascot party member tier list. I am very grateful that they brought Baton Pass Shift over from 5, not having it in Golden was a bit of a learning curve.
Interesting, I've only played 3 & 4, and I'd compare 4 to 3 like how you compared 5 to 4/3 - mechanically, 4 Golden was basically the perfection of the 3/4 gameplay formula, but it was hampered by the fact that the characters just weren't as good as in 3. I also preferred the darker tone and themes of 3, though perhaps the story is mostly a wash, since 3 kinda dragged in the 2nd half while 4 had solid pacing with its murder mysteries throughout.
Kinda sad to hear that P3R suffered from being too close to the source material, according to a lot of people. It really would've been great if it had combined the best of the gameplay the series had to offer with the best of the characters and perhaps tightened up the story. But perhaps the exclusion of FeMC and the Answer portion from FES was a sign that this was more of a cash grab than an attempt to create the definitive version of the game (obviously any remake is a cash grab, but there's a spectrum).
07mk
2mo ago
The ginger genocide (aside: this phenomenon + the anagram is probably the strongest evidence for the simulation hypothesis I've encountered) is a fair point, but my perception of this is that even the very phenomenon is little known outside of fairly niche circles of people who pay attention to this kind of thing, and even those who know don't often realize that this is endemic in the industry, with Zendaya's MJ being just one example. It's not nothing, but I don't recall it rising to even the level of Tilda Swinton's Ancient One in Doctor Strange (aside: any sort of race/sex swapping is justified if it's to get Tilda Swinton to play the character), much less, say, Ariel from The Little Mermaid (another example of the ginger genocide! And generally talked about on its own instead of part of the larger trend). Maybe MJ's case is due to the complete victory by one side, but honestly I thought it was more like Nick Fury where people just didn't care much since it's a supporting character whose race isn't much of a factor in the story.
07mk
2mo ago
I've only seen Zendaya in the Spiderman movies and Dune, so I can't speak to her acting chops, but I can't disagree more on the idea that people are pretending that she's attractive. IMHO she's easily the most attractive prominent Hollywood actress right now. Maybe Rebecca Ferguson and Gal Gadot might come close? In any case, purely based on looks and ignoring any acting skills, her apparent popularity seems entirely justified to me.
I can't even think of there being any particular hubbub about her race in casting decisions. Even in the super hero movies she was in - a genre notorious for filmmakers accusing fans of bigotry in recent years - her casting as the character-equivalent to the traditionally red-headed white woman Mary-Jane was basically a non-issue, similar to Sam Jackson being Nick Fury.
07mk
2mo ago
I couldn't make it thru one playthrough either, but not because of whatever ideologies it was trying to sell. It was just the uninteresting, unlikeable characters that gave me no investment in figuring out the murder. I found the setting very boring, too, so exploring the area and meeting its various inhabitants and witnesses was just a drag. I can only imagine how bad the writing must've gotten later on as the story developed and the characters had time to breathe, because the writing started off very stilted and unnatural and only seemed to get worse as I kept playing. Shame, since the RPG system for investigation/interrogation/other detective work seemed pretty neat.
07mk
2mo ago
Gina Carrano is famous enough to have been heard of, but doesn't have billions. If it could be demonstrated that she suffered serious online harassment and that this harassment has been ignored, would that advance the conversation, or would the answer be that she's still too privileged?
I think the claim of privilege would probably be thrown to see if it would stick, but I suspect most people would predict that it wouldn't stick due to the fact that she's not all that "privileged" even merely by Hollywood standards, to say nothing of the standards of Rowling. It doesn't help that her skin isn't super white, though I don't know if she has any actual heritage that would win her some oppression points.
I can only speculate about what the actual tactic would be. There are a couple common tactics that immediately come to mind. One is just minimizing the harassment she faced, saying that it's unfortunate, but why do you care about that when there are literally trans people getting genocided every day in America? The other is just retreating from the position that women deserve special protection because they're women and saying she fucked around and found out or played stupid games and won stupid prizes. This is actually the same basic position as the people who call out the Sarkeesian defenders of the world as catastrophizing what was standard part of online discourse that was already cliche 10 years ago. Of course, logical inconsistency has also been a cliche in discourse in general, and so this shouldn't be surprising; that said, when an ideology specifically denigrates things like logical or rational thinking as being something white oppressors imposed on the rest of us, my guess is that followers in that ideology are more susceptible to pushing logically inconsistent behavior and rhetoric.
Hm, how does this square with the works like The Witcher (2019), Rings of Power (2022), or Willow (2022) seemingly (I'm speculating due to only having watched the 1st 2 seasons of The Witcher out of these - I don't recommend even S1 due to S2 retroactively making it a waste of time) trying to ape GoT's aesthetic and stylings in an apparent effort to replicate its success? The Witcher was in production before GoT's self-immolation (though GoT was pretty clearly in the process of pouring gasoline all over itself and looking for matches for multiple years already), but the other two were being produced after GoT was well established as just a pile of ashes. Also, the sexual content in GoT is more associated with when it used to be good, and so it doesn't seem likely to me that the sexual content was specifically the part of GoT that show runners would avoid while trying to ape other parts of it.
More options
Context Copy link