Bombadil
2mo ago
Liberals would say the problem is the human smugglers. But they have no authority over them and don't want to shoot them, so they have no influence over what to do. People choose to go with them because the smugglers tell them lies about how easy their life will become, and the business model is lucrative enough that this won't change if we decide to stop saving people. So saving them becomes the moral thing to do.
Bombadil
2mo ago
You need to get them on a boat/plane and then off the vehicle upon arrival. The immigrants are not cooperative and will not consent to do this, so you have to force them somehow. Threats of shooting them won't fly for western audiences though, so you will have to hope the threat of imprisonment is enough.
Then there is the matter of the host country which does not want to take responsibility for its citizens. It might block your vehicle from landing, and there will be no attempts made to stop the immigrants from exiting the country once again.
So easier said than done. I guess you could give them a parachute and push them out of a plane. Although that might be more expensive than just keeping them imprisoned in their host country.
Bombadil
2mo ago
I don't see why women would want the status quo to change though. They benefit in the short term, and the long term damage is hard to anticipate. Especially so when anyone trying to educate about the downsides is shouted down as "attempting to control women's bodies". In a democracy, we do need the consent of both genders for a norm change to work.
It is also not entirely clear to me that there is a better system to swap to. The old one led to what we have now after all, and it seems fairly undeniable that a lot of people used to end up in bad marriages with people who didn't care much about them regardless.
Bombadil
2mo ago
But unfortunately I can't readily point towards a more effective strategy that he could implement on his lonesome.
You don't solve societal problems on your lonesome. You adapt to them. In the modern dating landscape, you either lean into the hypergamy and superficiality of it all, or you reach a mindset where you are okay with staying a virgin for a long time, potentially forever.
Neither is easy, obviously. If you are of a sufficiently analytical mind, you can't just turn that off on command and genuinely believe that everything is fine. But the other option is a degree of enlightenment that is likely only attainable by the few.
Much more likely then that you just kinda suffer from a lack of romance, sex, and community for the rest of your days.
That said, I think most of this pain will be directed inwards. It is very hard to do stuff in the real world when your need for community is unmet. You just don't have the energy. Much easier to rage on the internet. If anything this will probably just lead to more self harm amongst men, which I doubt society will care much about.
Bombadil
2mo ago
Perhaps this is a sign of poor understanding of international relations on my part, but I would assume that you would at least want to present a shared front with your allies during formal negotiations. Make sure you have pressured your ally before negotiations if need be, so that you know ahead of time that they will officially support the deal you sign.
It seems that Trump just skips this entirely. He simply ignores his allies during negotiations, then expects them to support a decision that blindsided them completely.
Bombadil
3mo ago
This has been an overall issue with the Trump administration. The assumption that any decision made by the US is law, and that everyone else will follow regardless of whether they were present at negotiations or not.
You saw it as US reduced aid to Ukraine, assuming the EU would follow suit.
Next during peace negotiations when America decided to not invite Ukraine, and instead assumed they would acquiesce to whatever decision the two great powers came up with.
In the initial phases of the Iran war, Trump assumed the rest of NATO would help. Even though it was not in their interest and they had not been involved with invasion plans in the first place. This war was notably a surprise for almost all interested parties, yet the US expected help as if they had all agreed on a plan together.
Now you have these Iran peace talks in which one of the parties to the war is not involved. Then everyone acts surprised when said party ignores the terms of a deal they never agreed to.
Bombadil
3mo ago
I think there is a spiritual argument in favor of precise execution of a specific movement over speed or efficiency. Developing extreme skill in a very limited domain is the point. This also serves to train your discipline and focus. You need to stay present and on task until the competition is over, otherwise you will do the wrong movements.
Besides, sports imply competition and competition implies a ruleset, right? You need to draw the line for what is and isn't appropriate somewhere. Why not do it like this?
Bombadil
3mo ago
Obviously, no military in the world could prevent a determined US from taking Greenland. The cost however, of taking it by force changed massively for the US. The threat of sanctions from a combined EU + potential war with the other NATO countries made Trump see military action as no longer worth it.
Bombadil
3mo ago
Again, completely blown out of proportion. They wanted to buy it, the talk of invasion was media and politicians hyperventilating.
It is always interesting to me that two people can see the same event unfold and come to wildly different conclusions. As far as I can tell, Trump clearly indicated he would take Greenland by force if necessary, and only backed down because several NATO countries showed support for Denmark. Had they not done that, had Denmark stood alone, no alliance would have kept the American military from waltzing in and taking the island.
Bombadil
3mo ago
Even without Ukraine, there is the following:
- Punitive tariffs.
- Threatening the invasion of Greenland.
- Invading Iran without first discussing with the EU nations, causing economic damage and chaos without even giving them a chance to prepare.
- Having it in the national security strategy that they want to create regime change in Europe.
You can see how these points might come off like a betrayal of sorts, right? And this took me like 10 minutes to think of. I am sure there is more stuff that I am forgetting about.
Bombadil
3mo ago
If Israel is our ally, our greatest ally, then they can't be allowed to do this to us. They can't insult and undermine the clear foreign policy of the POTUS and be allowed to do so.
Replace "Israel" with "USA", you funnily enough get how it has felt to be a European for the past year and a half. Trump has instituted an era in which alliances are no longer treated with the sanctity they deserve. If betraying your ally has marginal benefit to you, then that is the done thing.
While I am not in favor of the war continuing, part of me does see this as karmic justice. Finally America gets to know how it feels to be shafted by your "greatest ally".
Bombadil
3mo ago
I think you are taking it for granted that most men have access to this abundance in the first place. That is a political choice. It is absolutely possible for the majority of resources to be controlled by relatively few individuals that everyone else must choose to either suck up to, or accept starvation.
That is one hell of a chainsmoker.
I consider this a sign of great progress personally. The fact that your trajectory in life is not determined by society the moment that you are born, but is largely down to the qualities you develop and the choices that you make throughout your life, is not something to be taken for granted.
Granted, there is still a strong correlation between lineage and life trajectory. Upbringing matters a lot. But the simple fact that society won't actively stop you from trying to break out of your social class is huge.
Bombadil
3mo ago
This is a discussion about whether society has betrayed men. Talking about the majority of men then is the point.
Bombadil
3mo ago
You link to the middle of a dragonball Z clip that has nothing to do with the rest of your argument.
Bombadil
3mo ago
Regarding socioeconomic mobility, my point was that many structural barriers to social mobility have been removed. You are not going to be denied a job or degree based on family name, and if you don't have the money required to get an education you can borrow them. Just make sure that you get a degree that will enable you to pay it back.
There are absolutely psychological issues that make climbing hard. Your bad decisions can absolutely come back to haunt you too. And like your link to the Star Trek quote says, success is never guaranteed. But it is certainly more possible now than at most other times in recorded history.
Considering what I am arguing against is that society has betrayed men, I think the point that "structural barriers to social mobility for young men have been reduced drastically over time" is a good data point to support my point.
It is not just technological and economic advancement. Liberal democracy, belief in meritocracy, and free-market capitalism gives you opportunities that only people with preexisting wealth and influence would otherwise be able to attain.
The fact that these are under attack is a problem, but their advantages are very much not nullified yet.
Bombadil
3mo ago
Yeah, I would agree with this for any western country. Assuming you are an able-bodied citizen, while there may be unfair structural disadvantages against you, there is currently no structural oppression so bad that it is impossible for you to get ahead.
Bombadil
3mo ago
You are making a lot of assumptions that I don't necessarily agree with.
- That life on the frontier was freer than life today. That may have been true for some people in the sense that they were subject to fewer regulations than modern citizens. It does not seem true regarding how many different options people have in terms of lifestyle and career path today. You can specialize in so many different professions that just did not exist back then. Modern citizens also seem to have more opportunities to recover from mistakes. A lot of things that just killed you back then can be treated today, which gives modern men more opportunities to recover after making mistakes. This seems very significant to me.
- That the majority of people on the frontier lived under freedom from rules and regulations. Given that many people on the frontier were soldiers living under a strict hierarchy, this seems doubtful to me. You are also clearly not counting Native American tribes in with the free citizens, since they saw their freedoms vastly diminished as they were slowly conquered by the colonists.
- That for 300 years, the majority of Americans lived the frontier life. But by definition, the frontier is the edge of civilization where few people lived. this map shows the frontier line as the point where population density dramatically drops. Over time, areas that were once the frontier transformed into governed cities. So you are really pointing to a small minority of people when arguing about how society has betrayed the majority of men overall.
Bombadil
3mo ago
The frontier of exploring the US only happened for a very short time. Maybe if you go back to the times before agriculture, you will see men be mostly well respected as members of their tribes. But for most of recorded history it seems clear to me, that the majority of men lived under conditions that would be considered borderline slavery in today's terms, essentially being forced to fulfill whatever role they happened to be born into.
I do think it is important to have some perspective here. Individuals, men included, have never been freer. Mandatory conscription has declined since the cold war, education and knowledge is accessible to everyone, and outside of the big cities it is possible to live very cheaply as long as you don't mind having very few material possessions. No job can turn you into a wage slave. You are free to save up, quit, and live your life as you please. Wages are high enough that a single man with good financial sense can build savings over time.
Social mobility has never been easier. No longer are you bound to the same job that your father had. If you are born smart and driven, but low class, you are free to get an education, build connections at university and create a better life for yourself and your children. The social roles of gender and class have eroded, giving you more opportunities than ever before.
Male dominated jobs have never been safer. You are not going to die at 60 because your lungs were destroyed from inhaling dust at the factory. The western world has tons of regulations concerning ventilation, overtime, how much you are allowed to carry at once and so forth. If you do get an injury, modern medicine gives you better odds of recovery than your forefathers could have even dreamed of.
If you do initially fail to create a good life for yourself there are social safety nets that can catch you and potentially allow you to start over and learn from your mistakes. The strength of these depend on your country, but at the very least you are not going to starve.
A man who takes ownership of his life, builds an understanding of the world he lives in, and takes the initiative to improve his station has better chances than basically any man who came before him. The issue of course, is that young men are not raised to do this.
Where I agree with you is that society lies to young men. We are raised to be obedient and easy to manage, then bombarded with messages of how we are the cause of every problem in the world. We are taught to expend considerable effort on providing for minorities (anyone who isn't a white man) due to notions of guilt and fairness. Young men are taught to play it safe, avoid risks, and do only as others tell them. This completely fails to prepare them for a world that actually rewards risk taking, courage, independent thinking, and initiative.
Then, of course, there is the whole dating thing, where men are lied to about women want for their entire childhood, only to be ridiculed as adults for failing to attract any.
I do see problems, but overall I think your message can only hold true for men born into high social status. Historically, the majority of men have been largely considered as cheap disposable labor, and have led extremely harsh and thankless lives. For those, the current world by far outclasses what we had a hundred years ago. It isn't even close.
Bombadil
3mo ago
That, I suppose, is an issue I did not consider.
I don't see much point if age verification is only implemented on a country by country basis. That way we still get the foreign interference and inflammatory trolls that just spin up a new account. The worst of both worlds really.
Although if the argument for it is mainly "we need to protect the children against Andrew Tate", then I could maybe see European governments doing it this way regardless.
The push for ID verification does seem to be happening in every western country at basically the same time though. So if it does go through, I have some hope that it will at least be a global thing.
Bombadil
3mo ago
Moderators don't need to see the ID to ban it. Only the website does. Assuming ID is mandatory, then the website would have to be able to see it in order to verify the user is old enough. The moderators would send a request for the website to ban the ID of the user. The rest is automated.
I think it has more to do with society telling women to surrender to their base instincts when it comes to sex. It makes sense that straight up encouraging women to sleep around in their twenties would cause stable relationships to plummet which then reduces sex and fertility rates across the population.
I really don't think it is that complicated. Young women seem to deliberately shy away from romance and commitment, instead preferring more casual hook ups and friends with benefits. Society broadly encourages this. Even parents seem fine with it, not wanting to dictate how their daughters should use their bodies. This naturally results in family formation being delayed which then leads to fewer children overall.
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