Botond173
7d ago
Identitarian in the sense that the group was founded on the members' shared identity as Christian men, not simply as Christians.
Botond173
7d ago
I was following the latest flame war regarding the human mating marketplace on this board (see here and here, for those that are unaware) with mild interest and was considering posting some dudebro take on the matter by using as an educative example the story of the now largely defunct Christian men’s identitarian group in the US who called themselves ‘Promise Keepers’, of whom I learned a long time ago completely by accident. Then I realized this may not be the best idea, as I imagine only relatively few people are even aware of their (past) existence. So before I decide to proceed I’ll ask this very question: how many of you have ever heard of this particular sad bunch?
Botond173
8d ago
Isn't what you're describing basically just the Russkiy vs Rossiyskiy dichotomy in Russian national history?
Botond173
8d ago
I remember seeing LA Confidential but I can't recall any narrative about institutional racism.
Botond173
8d ago
russians lost quite a lot of wars
Such as?
And the theory predicts the russian ends up winning
It doesn't. I never claimed that. What I did claim is that it's grave folly to look at the initial blunders of the Russians and then assume it's all they will ever keep doing and thus expecting final victory over them as self-evident.
So, do the americans, or the french, not learn, in war?
Judging by the German campaign of 1940, the French indeed do not learn, and we don't have later examples to judge. With respect to the US, unfortunately we can conclude that learning anything from Vietnam was quite difficult. American politicans also appeared to have learning from the Panama and Kuwait conflicts that making war can be made easy and bloodless, which is also just hubris.
The customary reward of defeat, if one can survive it, is in the lessons thereby learned, which may yield victory in the next war. But the circumstances of our defeat in Vietnam were sufficiently ambiguous to deny the nation (that) benefit. – Edward N. Luttwak
Botond173
14d ago
I’m of the view that words have meaning and are, when possible, to be used accurately. Deportations are deportations, and genocides are genocides. There are multiple cases in history of groups of people getting transported before getting genocided, but that do not count as cases of deportation, because a deportation is a different act of the state with a different purpose. It’s also unfortunately true that ‘deportation’ is often the word used in the West for forced national resettlements under Stalin even though the Western definition of it is something entirely different (but also something unrelated to genocide).
in order to destroy their way of life and national identity
They did the same thing to Russians as well, didn't they? The destruction of village communities and religious traditions, forced resettlement for the purpose of industrialization, collectivization, erasure of national heritage and the old culture - it was all done. (With the exceptions of funny Russian dresses, funny Russian music and traditional Russian dishes, of course.) We can't say that the Russians were doing this to the Ukrainians as a whole and other nationalities.
Botond173
14d ago
As the linked OP correctly states, Western governments are happily on board with multiculturalism and cultural diversity, as long as that cultural otherness is only expressed in the form of funny clothes and exotic foods. It seems that in this they are not that different from Stalin.
Botond173
14d ago
The question is whether this level of abundance will remain sustainable on a level where average women are practically self-sufficient.
Botond173
14d ago
the eligible men don't poach the femcels too much
I'm skeptical as to the true extent that so-called femcels even exist in modern society but this is by definition impossible.
Botond173
14d ago
Wiping out national identity had been the official policy everywhere - everywhere any sense of national identity beyond funny ethnic dresses and composing odes to Stalin in national language had been brutally repressed.
Plus the exotic food and drinks. You forgot about that part. But yeah, it's perverse! Surely we'll never see democratic, enlightened Western nations display such a callous attitude towards cultural minorities. That'd be a scandal!
Botond173
14d ago
As I was reading your argument I wasn't sure what it's reminding me of. Then it occurred to me: the Montana Meth Project memes.
This is not genocide. But under Stalin, it is.
This is not a tool of intended mass murder. But under Stalin, it is.
And so on. I mean...really?!
Botond173
15d ago
That 1988 report is somewhat curious. For one, the summary does not even make reference to Soviet Kazakhstan, where the famine mortality rate was regionally the highest. I also suspect that the authors and Soviet officials at the time were simply using a different definition of the word ‘sabotage’. The summary also leaves some questions open. Was there a drought after all or not? As far as I know, yes. Was the official Soviet response implemented after all or was it just BS?
Botond173
15d ago
The forced resettlement of so-called traitor nations was done as an act of collective punishment after they were declared to be German collaborators, not as a genocidal measure to dissolve their nationality. Had they been deported on an individual basis and scattered all over the country and not as a nation as a whole, that would be the case, but this is not what happened. Had the regime intended to genocide them, the simple truth is that they would not exist today.
Botond173
15d ago
If it were the only evidence, sure. But there's plenty of other evidence to the deliberate character of food confiscation, and to extreme hostility with which Soviets viewed the kulak class.
The kulak class does not equal the Ukrainian people. Not all Ukrainians were kulaks and not all kulaks were Ukrainian. There was no case of either Stalin or any other Soviet official claiming otherwise.
That somehow he only wanted to build communism, and accidentally took all food from them and accidentally they died because they had no food?
Nobody is claiming that. Yes, everyone broadly agrees that "Stalin did it", "it" being involuntary agricultural collectivization, grain confiscation and the dissolution of the kulaks as a class, the key words being as a class. Stalin was also clearly intent on continuing these policies (although not without alterations) even when their unintended consequence, also due to drought and other factors, was famine. That much is true. But the three main related claims of Ukrainian nationalists, as we discussed in another thread, are a wholly different matter.
Botond173
15d ago
Well, duh. Of course they do. Decades of propaganda will do that to you. I'm also sure a great number of African Americans earnestly believe their ancestors built the pyramids.
Botond173
15d ago
I’m still baffled. Deportation – to be more precise, the involuntary resettlement of a people – does not equal genocide. The Gulag system was set up not with the aim of mass murder but for the purpose of extracting important natural resources through forced labor. The majority of the victims of political purges were imprisoned or deported, not killed. I have to assume that you’re also aware of all this.
Botond173
16d ago
Frankly I find these claims increasingly baffling. The "Soviets had actually perpetrated other acts of genocide on purpose"? Other acts of genocide? Where? When? Their "ideology explicitly allowed and endorsed mass murder for political purposes". Fair enough, there were cases where this applied. But against entire ethnic groups? Which is what genocide is? Also, the elimination of nationalism necessarily entails genocide now?
Botond173
16d ago
Yes, I believe most of the goons in leading positions in the EU, most heads of state and members of government of EU member states are convinced that Ukraine will be able to push the Russians out of the occupied territories and de facto restore the pre-2014 border.
Botond173
16d ago
As far as I can see, it’s not Galician nationalists wanting their own Central European country that Putin objects to. It’s rather them wanting to control the entire territory of the former Soviet Ukraine, including the Crimea.
Botond173
16d ago
I'd wager the OP was referring to the future consequences of 50 years of American/Atlanticist/globohomo (and not Russian) hegemony over the Ukrainian people (or at least over the great majority of them). To illustrate what I guess is the same point, I ask you to consider the difference between A and B in the following two cases:
One:
A: The effects of Soviet hegemony in Eastern Germany on the national identity and patriotic sentiments of local Germans, as evidenced by their average propensity to vote for right-wing nativist parties since 1990
B: The effects of US hegemony in Western Germany on the national identity and patriotic sentiments of local Germans, as evidenced by the displayed level of their willingness to preserve themselves as a nation since 1949
Two:
A: The effects of Soviet hegemony in Poland on the Catholicism and patriotic sentiment of the locals
B: The effects of US hegemony on the same in the last 25 or so years
I’d say there’s clear evidence that it’s US and not Soviet hegemony that has the larger detrimental effect on national identity and survival.
Yes, they are a completely different group.
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