Botond173
2d ago
Resort to online dating apps in general? Sure. To do so in order to find a husband? Rather unlikely. What percentage of college-educated middle-class women are on dating apps anyway? I mean as a lifestyle choice, not as a fad that they engage in for 3 weeks.
The reddit URL returns a deleted post.
Botond173
2d ago
The general social consensus seems to be that complaining about anything pretty women do is low status and petty, and complaining about anything ugly women do in any way is needlessly mean-spirited. It’s generally understood that many women are needlessly petty, but for a man to point that out openly is itself generally dismissed as a sign of pettiness.
Botond173
2d ago
Does this actually work? The female status game seems fundamentally broken because women are competing for status with games that won't lead to relationship or career success.
The alternative would be, I dunno, learning how to cook, being pleasant, or just basically not being a troublesome harpy. The sort of things that are completely countercultural today and come across as hopelessly cringe in the eyes of the modal single woman.
Botond173
2d ago
I somehow doubt that one third of all college-educated single women in the future are going to resort to online dating apps and also be willing to marry working-class men in order to alleviate their relationship issues.
Botond173
2d ago
@Gillitrut @nomenym @faceh @HereAndGone2
I was following the discussion here on a recent scandal regarding AI-generated fake nudes with mild interest and went down into a bit of a rabbit hole in other earlier discussions that were linked. As a member of the he-man-woman-haters club and someone who used to follow Manosphere / Red Pill and dissident rightist sites, it appears to me that discussion on the wider context of this phenomenon is a bit lacking so I’ll offer a short overview myself.
It seems that there are multiple overlapping phenomena related to this issue:
#1 – High school boys creating fake nudes of their female classmates with or without AI and distributing them online among themselves; we can assume the individuals creating such content are a small minority and are usually of low social status, even practical outcasts otherwise
#2 – Some high school girls are sending real nudes of themselves to particular boys, which technically equals the production and distribution of child porn / CP; this is occurring in the larger context of a post-patriarchal, post-monogamist society where women are normally trying to out-slut one another in various ways to compete for the sexual attention of high-status men; sometimes such images get publicly distributed in the form of so-called revenge porn; obviously all of this is freaking out the adult women who are red-pilled enough to realize how self-defeating this entire sexual competition is
#1 and #2 are also occurring among college students and other adults but supposedly to a lesser degree, especially the fake nudes part; all this generates a relatively lower level of attention as the girls are all adults; it’s usually the revenge porn part that generates outrage, especially among feminists and their so-called male allies
#3 – there’s something that’s basically a subset of revenge porn, namely the private nudes of female celebrities getting publicized through hacking and content theft; fake nudes of them also obviously exist
#1, #2 and #3 are basically overlapping issues in the minds of normies, providing fodder for lipstick feminist and social conservative culture warriors.
We should look at the even wider social context of all this. What is the overall milieu that is shaping the attitudes of high school students?
#1 – Female sexuality itself has become a culture war issue in a particular way. What do I basically mean? Look at the usual preferences of anti-feminist toxic dudebros for a start: the women appearing in movies and video games to be smoking hot and scantily clad; their own girlfriends to be modest and demure in public but otherwise be their own personal sluts in private, while at the same time not even thinking about becoming OF/porn girls or “sex workers”. Culture-warring feminists look at all this with anger and naturally go on to loudly promote the exact opposite of all this by all means. This is basically a significant driver of the culture war altogether, and probably generates a level of resentment among young men towards feminists and feminist-adjacent women in general, a sort of resentment that never existed before feminism.
#2 – It has become completely normal for slop-creating female pop musicians, female celebrities altogether and female “influencers” to show their bare butts and thighs, cleavage, midriff etc. both online and offline; however, all of this is pointedly not done for the purposes that average men would prefer it all to have, namely a) providing simple entertainment / fanservice for dudebros and their male gaze without any feminist BS attached b) utilizing eroticism in order to attract high-value men into relationships with the promise of hot sex (which has basically been normal female behavior for thousands of years) c) showing off the goods as prostitutes if you are one. Instead, these women are normally open feminists, more or less loud ones, treating the “male gaze” and “unwanted attention” with disgust, loudly declaring that it’s not like they are trying to cater to icky men or anything, and are supposedly engaging in all this virtual whoring / thirst farming with a sort of weird irony in mind, where this is all simultaneously an act of female empowerment and a display of girlboss agency while at the same time some sort of critical commentary on the sad state of a shitty society that treats women like sex objects or whatever. Naturally, none of this is generating one ounce of male sympathy towards these women and their female fans.
#3 – Online porn has been normalized to such an extent that pretty much the only people receiving any unstated and limited social permission to complain about women engaging in it are the so-called sex negative feminists. Otherwise it’s all seen as another expression of female empowerment as long as the pretension is there that somehow none of it is done to please or benefit men. It has become an accepted social reality that average women will happily suck dick, swallow cum, do gangbangs online for the money, and it’s all normal, because it’s not like they are doing anything objectionable or whatever. We’re also seeing the spectacle of young women taking the usual route of doing hardcore porn, milking their career for all the money they can, then retiring and having some sort of fake-ass epiphany later, crying their butts off in online videos claiming regret, stating that they’re the victims of some evil patriarchal regime that ostracized them, appearing on anti-porn podcasts etc., demanding that their videos be removed from the internet, complaining about their young children being bullied etc.
Again, I leave it to your imagination to decide what attitudes towards women are all this driving among young men.
Botond173
4d ago
As UNIAN reported earlier, the Verkhovna Rada on September 20, 2018 sent to the Constitutional Court a presidential bill amending Ukraine's Constitution regarding the strategic course of the state for obtaining full membership of Ukraine in the EU and NATO (No. 9037).
The law proposes that Ukraine's irreversible course toward European and Euro-Atlantic integration be stipulated in the preamble of the Fundamental Law along with the confirmation of European identity of the Ukrainian people.
Article 102 is supplemented with the provision that "the president of Ukraine is the guarantor of the implementation of the state's strategic course for obtaining Ukraine's full membership in the European Union and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization."
Botond173
4d ago
It's not prostitution I was referring to, but the phenomenon known as settling - i.e. women marrying men they aren't sexually attracted to. These relationships don't include female sexual attention.
Basically graduate women are marrying the higher-earning working class men
I'm not going to deny that this can be true, but I wonder how these two groups of people are even meeting? Their social circles scarcely overlap, if they overlap at all.
Botond173
6d ago
The inherent reality of insurance as applied to healthcare doesn’t make sense. Most people’s houses never burn to the ground. Most mail is never lost. Most people don’t die before they retire. Most ships don’t sink. Insurance works in these cases to pool risk. If every ship sinks some of the time, if everyone’s house burns down a few times in their life, insurance is bad model for handling these inevitabilities - a communal (eg church, guild, industry, whatever) or state-based scheme is economically preferable.
It's true that almost all people in developed countries eventually get old and frail, but it's not like people want to have health insurance so that it keeps them from getting old and frail. I imagine most sensible people who want it do so because they want insurance that they don't die from curable diseases that aren't their own fault. Theoretically there should be room for insurance of this sort.
Botond173
6d ago
I’m sure many veterans who returned from WW2 were obviously traumatized and turned into violent, dysfunctional fathers. This in turn meant that many of their sons grew up to be violent, traumatized young men. This was all exacerbated by ubiquitous lead poisoning and the overall upheaval of social norms. And what happened to many WW2 veterans also happened to Korean War and Vietnam War veterans obviously. To the extent that the serial killer phenomenon proliferated, I imagine it was mostly due to these factors. All this also had the consequence of driving a huge number of teenagers, including many girls, to run away from dysfunctional and traumatizing households, permanently or intermittently. Also, pop music turned into a huge and commercialized cultural phenomenon, plus rebellious behavior and drug use was socially normalized in the ‘60s. It was also much easier to have a transient lifestyle before the digital age.
I’d conclude that the number of teenagers who hitchhiked (and were then victimized by serial killers and other criminals) probably surged enormously in the ‘60s and ‘70s and later fell back to its normal level. It was probably all a relatively short social anomaly.
Botond173
6d ago
The marriage rate for graduate women (a reasonable proxy for 'girlbosses') has been increasing since the 1980s, and has only declined by 10% from 1968 to today (85% to 75%). The collapse in marriage has been among lower class women.
I won’t dispute those statistics and I have to concede that they do contradict the usual Red Piller / Manosphere arguments. But two things need to be pointed out in this regard. One is that there are roughly three female college students for two male college students and it has been so for more then a decade or so. This means that roughly one out of three college-educated women who want to marry will basically have to either accept a husband without a college degree or forego marriage. As the former is unlikely in most cases, I very much doubt that the marriage rates quoted in the article will continue. (Someone in the Manosphere called this the coming ‘hypergamy crunch’.) The other thing is that we’ve seen the normalization of something in the past 2-3 decades that can be called the ‘consumption marriage’ among the middle-class and the upper class, meaning a marriage formed primarily for financial reasons in order to preserve and signal class status. Since the consequences of the Sexual Revolution have become clear, single motherhood and family dysfunction have largely become associated with lower class status; I imagine this is the main factor driving this trend.
I'm not sure how you're measuring 'sexual attention' but if we define it as 'having sex' then this obviously isn't true.
Whenever women engage in transaction sex of any sort with men they aren't attracted to, as opposed to having sex for its own sake, I'd argue that doesn't count as sexual attention.
Botond173
7d ago
It has nothing to do what Israeli politicians say or do and more of the fact that the Holocaust made the Jewish national existence the responsibility of every household. If they don't fuck in Israel, then they'll be demographically drowned out by the Arabs.
Has there been a similar trend among Armenians? Or the Tutsi people in Rwanda?
Botond173
7d ago
I'd argue that dating used to be less serious precisely because it didn't entail the possibility of premarital sex, at least not with society's sanction.
Botond173
9d ago
True. As far as society is generally concerned, serial monogamy is not promiscuity.
Botond173
9d ago
Modern women - as a a group average, not literally everyone, to be clear - have standards above what the actually existing average men can offer.
Not to sound like a dick, but I guess you're aware that women usually make exactly the same complaint in reverse?
Botond173
9d ago
I salute you for quoting Devlin. At some point I probably 'd have done that here myself, but I wasn't sure of the probable reception.
If Chad has a soft harem of five girls, and you force him to settle down, then he can only settle down with one of them, leaving the other four in the lurch.
But one is still more than zero.
Botond173
9d ago
My impression is that women's main complaint men is unwanted sexual attention.
For another, women, generally speaking, object to sexual attention from men they deem unattractive no matter what the circumstances, no matter how polite or respectful the man is.
Good point, but I'd file this under "the men that are willing to commit are undesirable", as I assume the great majority of the men giving away all that unwanted sexual attention would be willing to commit.
How's this supposed to work given that men can't know in advance whether any given woman will find them desirable?
Well, you see, they're supposed to just get it i.e. magically know in advance.
Botond173
9d ago
If you have a 1% converting success on both groups, you'll influence more people on #1.
And eventually both paths will result in the same number of single women pairing up.
Botond173
9d ago
I’ve come across two witticisms on Manosphere blogs regarding this issue.
Plate-spinning / soft harems = promiscuity, as preferred by men; serial monogamy = promiscuity, as preferred by women.
And: the woman’s ideal is a strong man who’s a frightening menace to everyone except her; the man’s ideal is a virgin bride who turns into his personal slut. Neither is one bit more realistic than the other.
Botond173
9d ago
Just to make a general observation about the gender war as a followup to my comment on the Promise Keepers organization:
I think we can generally observe is that women’s main complaint about men is that desirable hetero men are unwilling to exclusively commit. If we accept this, we can also see that this is actually two complaints rolled into one. 1. The men that are willing to commit are undesirable (icky, clingy, lame, “chopped”, entitled, toxic, porn-addled, skinny fat etc.). 2. The men that are desirable are unwilling to commit. (On a tangent I’d argue that most of the lipstick feminist complaints made in the mainstream media by middle-class women about men in general do usually boil down to the rather similar complaint that 34-37-year-old successful, well-paid, charismatic, tall, ambitious etc. urban men are in no rush to marry 31-34-year-old college-educated middle-class office worker women.)
If we look at this logically, to the extent that it even makes sense to try doing so (which is a valid question in itself), there are two potential remedies for this problem. 1. Focus on the undesirable men that are willing to commit and somehow transform them into desirable men i.e. alphaize the betas 2. Focus on the desirable men and incentivize them to commit i.e. betaize the alphas.
Now I don’t know about you but to me it seems self-evident that #2 has more potential for success no matter how you look at it and yet virtually everyone who makes any sort of recommendations regarding this entire issue (and that does not only include Red Pillers) is promoting #1. No, really – I’ve never seen anyone advocate for #2, not even the Promise Keepers or, for that matter, any other similar group that does not claim to be feminist and is at the same time pushing the nebulous concept of a new positive masculinity.
Am I seeing things that are not there or is this really not the case? Because as far as I can tell, it is. It seems like there is a general unspoken consensus in society that trying to compel sexually successful men to commit to women is a completely impossible, pie-in-the-sky idea that deserves no attention at all; that, in other words, expecting modern women to elicit commitment from the men they are attracted to is laughable lunacy.
Botond173
11d ago
Hold up. I'd argue the first four of those are formative events of English identity. British identity is something the English, Scots, Welsh and Ulster Scots can all share. And my argument is that whatever that is, it cannot be decoupled from the project that British imperialism. What else did those peoples ever do together after all?
Botond173
13d ago
To what extent is there a British non-imperial identity though? I doubt one can divorce Britishness from the project of colonialism.
Botond173
14d ago
An Indian Army general echoed the same thing nearly verbatim in 1988.
He even has a Wikipedia article and appears to be a fascinating character and a true warrior. It bears mentioning that he was acculturated in British India and was educated at Madras Christian College.
I think there are two main escalation triggers to watch out for. The first is the dying off of the baby boomers, which will have a similar effect to pulling out all the control rods from a nuclear reactor at once. Boomers are less radical and they are an underrated part of damping both sides more violent impulses.
Maybe they're less radical, but they certainly were more violent back when they were young compared to the youth of today.
I can see it now, thanks.
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