Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
No bio...
User ID: 290
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
ETA: While I'm here, I'd like to point out that leftism is inherently satanic in the literal sense. On the one hand we have "God is God and you are not and He knows best" and on the other "You can be like God and decide for yourself as well or better than He can decide for you." This latter sentiment is known as pride.
Where does "The clergy are wrong about God's will" fit in this schema?
What about "God gave us the firewood, but expects us to light the match"?
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
· Edited 4mo ago
an unemployed person without food is ignored, a country [whose] crop failed because they are too stupid to understand crop rotation is [ignored], a person who can't build a malaria net is ignored
That's how illiberal movements gain adherents; if someone is suffering and liberals tell him, "It's your own fault; you don't deserve any help; but we have the inalienable right to have you go off and die somewhere it won't inconvenience us", while communists/fascists/wokists tell him "You deserve better; it's the bourgeoisie's/minorities'/white males' fault, join us and you'll have a better life", what do you think he will do?
If you seek to build liberalism that will last, you need Liberalism With A Human Face, even if that means less-than-absolute property rights.
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
A serious leader would have arrested Netanyahu on the spot for that insolence.
I'm fairly certain that that would violate several international treaties.
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
But if bureaucrats or judges can't overrule the demos, you have the 'two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner' issue.
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
Biden administration built a [pier] in Gaza because they didn't want the [Israelis] or the Egyptians inspecting the crates
I'd assumed it was that they were under a lot of pier pressure.
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
How is it not the same?
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
The point is that mass killing, of people who haven't harmed anyone, is a bad thing, even if the gens survives. The destruction of the gens is tragic, but it is merely the icing on the evil cake.
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
Working to establish such a principle is unilateral disarmament
No, it's telling both sides not to pull the triggers if they aren't being fired upon.
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
The Germans were not going to start genociding Germans
Except for gay Germans, Communist Germans, Social-Democratic Germans, disabled Germans, Germans whose grandparents were Jewish, Germans who were Jehovah's Witnesses or Christian Scientists,....
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
I've spent too long watching oppression against straight whites defined as "anti-oppression" and resistance defined as "oppression".
Yes, oppressors tend to lie about what they are doing.
neither does it deal well with ... resource conflicts
Which is why degrowth is a very bad idea.
There is no way to make a system where everyone gets what they want AND nobody is oppressed.
Only because some people want to oppress others.
For example, my existence as a misgenderer oppresses trans people
Misgendering isn't something you are, it's something you do, to other people.
their attempts to force me to use their preferred pronouns oppresses me
A policy of "Thou shalt use the exact pronouns specified; using they/them for a nonbinary person who prefers ze/zir is a banworthy/firable offence"? I would agree with you. "They/them for everybody", or "he/him for male-presenting/identified, she/her for female-presenting/identified, they/them for androgynous/non-binary" ought to be considered an acceptable compromise.
A policy of "If Alice and Barbara are equally female-presenting, both identify as female, and both have stated a preference for she/her, you do not refer to Alice as he/him, or as they/them while referring to Barbara as she/her, merely because Alice happened to be born with a dangly bit" is not oppression, because it is not oppression for Alice's genitals to be none of your business.
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
Is this an example of "regarding certain peoples' lives as a less sacred value than property?
That would be a case of self-defence; the individual persons in the mob are actively attempting to harm you. However, if your town has 1,000 $FOO, and you know that 990 of them are planning to attack you, but not which ones, you are not justified in declaring $FOO as a group to be guilty, killing all 1,000 of them, and claiming self-defence.
If no $FOO has tried to harm you, letting them die to save a tiny fraction of a percent on your tax bill is also not justifiable.
Handy that we are not restricted to ultimate conclusions
It's more a matter of seeking an ethical framework less amenable to gerrymandering for the benefit of one's ingroup/harm to one's outgroup.
are entirely capable of balancing competing interests
The interest of "AIDS patients continuing to get the medication they need to live" > the interest of "your tax bill being slightly smaller".
Nature ... provides a default
And that default leaves behind piles of skulls. Many of those skulls are alarmingly tiny.
We can diverge from that default if doing so seems preferable
Someone getting medication that keeps them from dying of AIDS is preferable to them dying of AIDS.
You do not get to claim that Nature is unjust in any meaningful sense.
And yet I am claiming that.
and to what degree they are culpable for the percentages in the first place
I would not want the medical system picking over every aspect of my lifestyle to decide whether I am worth saving; therefore I apply the Golden Rule, and oppose the same being done to my neighbour.
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
What "principle" is being pushed in the quoted part above?
The notion that that someone's life matters less if nature wants them dead.
The reason to let nature take its course here is, again, triaging; we have scarce resources that we have to distribute to a limited number of people
The argument "We don't have enough resources to save everyone" falls flat when made by someone who had the opportunity to get enough resources and chose not to.
The comments were pretty specific about the people in question, and describing them as "member of a group we don't like" is simply a lie.
The specific group isn't relevant to my argument, because when that lack of compassion is applied, it has a tendency to spread. That was the point Niemöller was trying to make.
tend to catch and spread diseases regardless of the medical care thrown at them
Actually, there are anti-retrovirals which will make someone carrying HIV not spread it. However, even if that were not the case, saving a life is good.
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
the annualized cost of PREP seems to be a tad higher even than a woman getting pregnant every 2 years
But a lot lower than the cost of not preventing the spread of HIV even among men who refuse to stop having promiscuous sex with other mutually consenting men, given that twice as many patients with uncontrolled AIDS equals twice as many chances for HIV to mutate into a form that can easily infect people who are monogamous or celibate and who do not use intravenous drugs.
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
Lots of groups have stopped. Pretty much every group has stopped short of omnicide, including the Nazis.
They didn't stop, they were stopped, at great cost. If they had been stopped sooner, the cost would have been less; if they had not been stopped in 1945, they would have kept going.
either the "gay communists" get oppressed or the straight cis white men do
Or, we agree to resist oppression by anyone, gay or straight, black or white, red or blue, man or woman, against anyone else, while maintaining the distinction between the individual perpetrators and those who happen to share characteristics with them.
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
that nobody should come for anyone
And if someone does, it behooves everyone else to stop them now, before they become entrenched, even if they're starting with people you don't like.
For the time being, residing in the kill or be killed world, I vastly prefer the left side of the equation.
And you are justified in defending yourself against individuals who are trying to harm you. What is not justified is going after people who share some characteristic with them but haven't done anything to harm anyone. Again, this applies to both left and right; the principle that states that the right having grievances against some people who happen to be gay does not justify them treating all gay people as disposable also states that the left having grievances against some people who happen to be white does not justify them treating all white people as disposable.
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
We observe that the category of "human beings who deserve to live" can both expand and contract. Your position, then, is that it should only expand?
My position is that "human beings who deserve to live" should be coterminous with "human beings", as otherwise it tends to contract precipitously.
If it expands to include a category of people previously excluded, and then things get significantly worse, we just have to live with it because
...the alternative, a society with mechanisms for declaring whole groups of people to be unworthy of life, sets a precedent which is very likely to end up biting you in the arse.
Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
I don't think anyone has suggested rounding up people who have promiscuous dangerous sex or use intravenous drugs to send them to death camps.
They may not be suggesting it now, but if you normalise regarding certain people's lives as a less sacred value than property....
It's rather just letting nature take its course
A principle which, if carried to its ultimate conclusion, leads to 40-50% of babies dying before their fifth birthday.
Given those grim statistics, I hardly think that Nature is a good guide to right and wrong.
while devoting scarce lifesaving resources elsewhere, which I think is a pretty standard thing to do in medicine.
There is a difference between "We're at 200% capacity right now, and getting more resources will take longer than our patients have" versus "We will be over capacity some time in the future, we can get enough resources to save everyone by the time they will be needed, but we don't feel like doing so"; there is also a difference between "prioritising Alice over Bob because Alice has a 90% chance of survival while Bob has a 2% chance" versus "prioritising Alice over Bob because Bob is a member of a group we don't like".
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
The reasoning on that was that there had been a long history of very racist comparisons between black people and non-human primates.
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
Maybe that was what I was thinking of. (It was c. 20 years ago.)
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
I remember an e-mail forward, titled 'The unbearable likeness[sic] of being", that had pairs of images of Bush fils and Hitler in similar poses; I haven't been able to find it again, so I couldn't tell you if that gesture was included.
(There was also a similar forward, "The Man/Simian Candidate", which paired pictures of Mr Bush with chimpanzees; one website hosting it, upon receiving Strongly-Worded Letters from people offended on Mr Bush's behalf, posted a statement saying "We apologise for making such a comparison, and hope that the following will be considered sufficient restitution.", followed by a thank-you-for-your-donation letter from the Jane Goodall Institute.)
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
The point of that poem is that when anyone, left or right, starts narrowing the category of 'human beings who deserve to live', they don't stop, and they are likely to end up narrowing it to exclude you. I personally believe that it is morally wrong to have a category of 'human lives that don't matter' (if any exception exists, it is only those who are currently, wilfully harming others and refuse to stop), but even if you do not share this belief, the existence of such a category is not in your self-interest.
For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind.
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
It's bad karma.
You start dividing humanity into 'upstanding citizens worthy of life' and 'sub-humans whose life and well-being is not worth any efforts', sooner or later someone will put you into the second category.
First they came for the homosexuals, but I was not homosexual, so I stayed silent.
Then they came for the immigrants, but I was not an immigrant, so I stayed silent.
Then they came for the disabled, but I was not disabled, so I stayed silent.
And then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
Or 'Canine-American'.
Celestial-body-NOS
Why should Man not rebel against Nature, when Nature herself is in rebellion against Justice?
4mo ago
constantly preserving the lives of people who will almost instantly die if aid is ever cut off without any path towards independence from said aid
That proves too much, as it could also be applied to many other life-saving medications, such as, inter alia, anti-rejection drugs for people with organ transplants.
I'm still hoping that Lord Dampnut and the Deep State take each other down, and make room for something between Bernie Sanders and Scott Alexander....
More options
Context Copy link