Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
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User ID: 290
Oh my God, I can't tell the difference – they're exactly as sexually deviant as each other!
I am not equating the sides in sexual deviance, so much as pointing out that accusations of sexual deviance were not first levied by the pro-trans faction.
Getting changed in front of a male person makes me uncomfortable and I don't think I should be expected to do it.
I believe that a cis-woman uncomfortable changing in front of a trans-woman deserves the same accommodations as a white woman uncomfortable changing in front of a black woman, or an Englishman uncomfortable changing in front of an Irishman; namely, it is reasonable to ask for one-person changing areas to avoid having to change in front of anyone one doesn't know; it is not, in my opinion, any more reasonable to demand a 'cis-women only' facility (or an 'officially people born with female parts only facility', but I doubt trans-men will be welcomed) than it is to demand a 'whites only' or a 'no dogs or Irish' facility.
Women who want to protect their intimate spaces
Is it still an 'intimate space' if four billion strangers are potentially allowed to walk in willy-nilly?
Likewise, plenty of trans women just do look ridiculous. Maybe you think it's not polite to point it out, but I know you think it. Don't tell me you look at this person and think to yourself "wow, what a hot sexy lady! I would love to take a gander at those bizarre prosthetics she's wearing under her top!"
Plenty of cis-women look just as ridiculous.
many trans women barely even pretend to hide that their "identification" is just acting out a sexual fetish.
gross fetishists who are openly, proudly addicted to sissy hypno porn and hold conferences on how to "overcome the cotton ceiling".
Yes, there are trans people who are perverts, just as there are cardiologists who are murderers and Chinese people who are robbers. That does not make all trans individuals perverts.
If, as you imply, gender-critical people's obsession with trans people's genitals is borne of sexual deviance
It is not necessarily born of sexual deviance, but that does not change the fact that those parts, and other people's bodies in general, are none of your business. If Alice wants to know the precise dimensions of my private parts out of carnal desire, Bob wants to know for statistical purposes, and Carol wants to know because she thinks she can predict the future by the bodily measurements of a randomly selected person, I am equally entitled to tell all of them to bog off.
If someone is loudly parading their perversion around for all and sundry to see, it's not wrong for me to accurately characterise it as such.
I don't agree with your assertion that transness is a perversion.
Meanwhile, trans activists are demanding a) the right to expose their genitals to female people who have made it abundantly clear this behaviour makes them uncomfortable, and that b) female people get undressed in front of them, even if doing so makes them uncomfortable.
If Dana averts her eyes because she is uncomfortable seeing Erin's nether regions, or undresses behind a curtain because she is uncomfortable with Erin seeing hers, she has not acted wrongly toward Erin. If Dana demands that Erin not be permitted to use the same facilities, Erin is justified in complaining. This applies if Erin is a cis-woman, and it also applies if Erin is trans.
trans activists want a special dispensation to commit acts which would otherwise be considered indecent exposure or voyeurism.
No, they want to be allowed to do the same things as cis individuals are allowed to do.
we both know which of these two groups it's more appropriate to level the accusation of sexual deviance against.
No, we don't. I legitimately disagree with you.
I have re-read the linked posts and have not found anywhere where I have claimed that you refuse to tell us why you think you're entitled to know about the genitals of complete strangers
A transparent lie. You said:
The anti-trans faction, believing themselves entitled to know, and act on the knowledge of, the genital/gonadal configurations of strangers, then started referring to 'sex' instead of 'gender', 'males' instead of 'men', and 'females' instead of 'women'; thus allowing them to make the assertion that other people's genitalia are any of their business without being seen to make said assertion, and avoid anyone asking why they are concerned with other people's anatomy.
I said that before you explained your reasoning.
If you really, honest to goodness, think that I need to see someone's full medical history in order to accurately tell whether they are male or female, I really don't know how we're expected to proceed with this conversation. Are you blind? Are you composing these comments using text-to-speech?
In the hypothetical, I am referring to someone who wants to know things other than 'was this person born with male- or female- associated biology'. Philosophy Bear's concept of 'inadmissible knowledge' gives the example of someone whose father is a murderer.
As an aside: I pointed out to you last time that some other aspects of a person's medical history simply can be inferred just by looking at them. If you're obese, myopic or using a motorised wheelchair, it's meaningless to complain that your right to medical privacy has been violated when people notice this just from looking at you.
You can make educated guesses about someone's medical history by observation, but you are not entitled to know whether your guesses are correct; nor are you justified in declaring what is permitted to one to be forbidden to another based on it, unless you have a very, very, very, very good reason, well beyond the correlations associated with biological sex characteristics.
Maybe I'm terminally Quaker-brained, but I don't think it's generally right for what someone is and isn't allowed to do to vary based on accidents of birth.
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
7hr ago
Why then do you insist on using the extremely long-winded phrase "genitals and their sequelae" when the word "sex" would capture exactly the same distinction?
To replace the symbol with the substance, i. e., replace a disputed term with its definition.
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
1d ago
Pretty soon all that fire and brimstone is gonna turn into your grandpa getting all het up about men wearing belts to church instead of braces; what barberism.
And some of them are even trimming their beards during services!
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
1d ago
always a dirty right-winger because agriculture
Apparently, true progressives photosynthesise....
or that choice of flag.
I'd like to see a story where one side has the politics of a certain Austrian painter wrapped in a soft pastel uwu aesthetic, while the other side has the aesthetics of the III. Reich and 1990's/2000's liberal politics. (In TVTropes terms, A Nazi by Any Other Name vs. Putting on the Reich.) Too many people, while they learned that the Nazis were bad, lack understanding of why, and treat it as an axiom; this is a house built on sand. Knowing that 'totalitarianism and racial narcissism are bad; the Nazis did those things; therefore the Nazis were bad' is the house built on rock.
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
1d ago
I will acknowledge that, due to the norms against racial discrimination established during and after the Civil Rights Movement, the danger is less now than it would have been in earlier decades; however, these norms are eroding at an alarming rate.
Explicit discrimination existed, and left Black people poorer than they otherwise would have been.
Jim Crow was far more harmful to Black people than any of the attempts to remedy it have been to others.
I can see the argument for a higher standard of evidence for blaming particular people or institutions for discrimination.
I have considered many potential explanations for the continuing poor outcomes among Black people, both orthodox and heretical; all of them seem to, ultimately, trace back to discrimination against them, although that discrimination is not always done by human beings.
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
1d ago
I'm really sick of you trying to make me (and other gender-critical people) sound ridiculous and/or perverted
And how do you think a trans-woman might feel, when people characterise her identity in such a manner?
imply that anyone who isn't maximally trans-affirming is a sexual deviant
The pro-trans side was not the first to use that particular tactic.
"Sex" is not reducible to genitals. Male bodies are not just female bodies which incidentally happen to have penises bolted on.
No, they also have testicles rather than ovaries; all other biological differences are downstream of the hormones produced by these organs, hence 'sequelae'. (definition)
FtttG thinks he's entitled to know about the genitals of complete strangers, but refuses to tell us why!!
I have re-read the linked posts and have not found anywhere where I have claimed that you refuse to tell us why you think you're entitled to know about the genitals of complete strangers; I am rejecting your claim that your reasons justify the intrusion on people's privacy.
If you walk into your manager's office and you're like "I want to see all my cow-orkers' complete medical charts, which will help me make Bayesian inferences on which ones are most likely to go postal, so I can shun them.", how amenable do you think your manager will be to your request?
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
1d ago
dingeroth
Sounds like a location in World of Warquest, or something of that kidney.
Do you really expect that conclusive proof of the inferiority of blacks RE: IQ and crime would lead to the reinstation of such or similar laws, as if society hadn't changed at all since then?
Society has changed, but it hasn't changed enough, and seems to be backsliding in some ways.
If there were a universally-(modulo-lizardman-constant)-acknowledged taboo against judging an individual by the actions of his/her/their demographic group, I would be a lot less worried. (cf. my discussion with @FtttG regarding discrimination on the basis of natal genitals and the sequelae thereof)
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
1d ago
Ok, so in your view, societal recognition that blacks are less intelligent and more criminal would necessarily lead to the reinstatement of racial segregation in the South.
Do I understand you correctly?
No. It would not necessarily lead to such; however, defenders of Jim Crow often cited the alleged mental deficits and supposed inherent criminal tendencies of the Black population; thus, it is not as far from possibility as I would prefer.
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
1d ago
Germans were stereotyped as lazy bums interested only in eating and drinking.
...and intellectual pursuits.
"In the beginning, the good God gave to the French the dominion of the land, to the English the dominion of the seas, and to the Germans the dominion of the clouds." --Jean Paul Richter
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
1d ago
Are you able to be a little more specific about how public policy would necessarily look if society believed that "Black people are less intelligent and more criminal"?
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
1d ago
Libya disarmed their nuclear program and then we promptly proceeded with regime change resulting in the public torture and execution of its leader.
There were eight years and a Ghaddhaffist massacre of dissidents between those events.
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
1d ago
when you create a situation where it’s obvious that there’s not enough goodies to give the majority of people the good life
Maybe don't do that then? (This is why I find the leftist embrace of Gaianist degrowtherism to be less than logically coherent with their stated commitments to "Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité", and lean more toward Leigh Phillips Thought as a more effective route to the realisation of those principles.
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
1d ago
Would you apply the same standards to the claim that smoking cigarettes causes lung cancer?
No, because the consequences of getting it wrong are very different.
If a society believes that smoking causes cancer, and they are wrong, some people don't get to enjoy setting fire to foul-smelling leaves and covering their walls and furniture with discusting gunk.
If a society believes that Black people are less intelligent and more criminal, and they are wrong, millions of innocent people go through their lives with a boot stamping on their faces.
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
2d ago
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
2d ago
A job that shouldn't have been done; it would have been better if they had refused!
This is almost literally that meme from The Good Place!
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
2d ago
virtually no Auth-Left or Lib-Left
And what am I? The two of clubs?
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
2d ago
I'm just saying that the differences we see between cultures are not hard-coded into our DNA.
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
3d ago
...turn Japan into Afghanistan.
You mean the Sengoku jidai?
Admittedly it's not a perfect parallel, but it does go to show that countries can change rather dramatically.
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
3d ago
the Ranch is basically underwater in debt and always has been, but that it's so much debt that the bank keeps letting Dutton roll it forward to avoid having to deal with the write-down / write-off.
"If you owe the bank $100,000, you have a problem. If you owe the bank $100,000,000, the bank has a problem."
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
3d ago
[I]s Iran a threat to America's interests, or only a threat to Israel's interests?
I'm not certain that one can meaningfully separate these; to allow, through inaction, the destruction of Israel would invite a metric arse-load of bad karma on a country already on shaky ice after the MS St Louis.
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
3d ago
You're right, my recommended alternative wasn't totally airtight and perfect. I am so sorry for having voiced my tiny brain solution.
Your recommended alternative has been tried, and it had the shortcomings I specified.
Do you have a solution?
Yes. Congress gets off its collective arse and provides the assistance people need, even to people whose neighbours think deserve to starve in a ditch.
[A]re you saying that the current state of affairs of relying on state employees / state subsidies to look after your children ... is better?
I'm saying that before you tear down the fence, you should have some idea of why it was put up.
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
3d ago
The larger point I was driving at is that voters shouldn't have to be in the position of relying on congress to provide things. Mostly, it should be done through semi-formal social networks.
...which work very well until the semi-formal social network decides that it doesn't like your face, or whom you marry, or the vocabulary you kept using two days after it was declared problematic because you were too busy working to keep up with the ever-changing list of naughty no-no words....
I generally think that its ok to trust scientists and that they can self regulate with their dangerous toys, and that was my viewpoint for biological research back then. Now I'm in alignment with everyone here, fuck this research, it needs to end and we can't trust you with these dangerous toys.
A permanent end to such research would cost us the possibility of spotting potential pandemics before they occur naturally, and having preparations in place to stop them, thus condemning the Human Race to forever living under the Sword of Damocles of pandemics with death tolls in the 7-/8-digit range at best, and 9/10 digits at worst. (I once came across a story of a post-collapse society which believed that preventing people from dying of infectious disease was morally wrong because it 'interfered with the balance of Nature', i. e. denying her the ability to commit mass homicide whenever she felt like it; it was at that moment that I realised that I understood the meaning of the word 'cuck', and that my disagreement with the frog-posters was a matter of my considering the relevant 'race' to be one that includes Charlemagne, Sejong, Mansa Musa, Hiawatha, and all 400+ of these people.)
However, recent progress in spaceflight has opened the possibility that dangerous research could be conducted away from inhabited planets; thus potentially hazardous biological experiments do not need to be permanently ended, merely delayed until a secure bio-lab can be constructed in a heliocentric orbit away from earth.
Not quite, and less so after this conversation.
In the academic, theoretical, seek-the-truth-though-the-heavens-fall, separated from policy implications realm, one is justified in applying scepticism equally to any and all claims, and maintaining an estimate of their probability greater than 0% percent and less than 100%.
Thus, in this realm, I assign non-zero probability to the hypotheses that Black underperformance is caused by:
I also assign 100%-minus-a-tiny-bit probability to the hypothesis that smoking causes lung cancer, and 0%-plus-a-tiny-bit probability to the hypothesis that the observed correlation is caused by Alien Space Bats aiming trans-dimensional gamma beams at the lungs of anyone they see practising that particular vice.
On the other hand, in the realm of public policy and practical implications on the lives of human beings, it becomes necessary to consider how much harm a hypothesis might cause, and hold some hypotheses to a higher standard of proof on that basis. Thus the genetic hypothesis of racial gaps demands a very high standard of proof to be let in the door of the legislative building, because there are many people who are still sore that the Damyankees came into the south and imposed at bayonet-point their cultural values, such as checks notes requiring them to pay the people picking their crops, and have been taking it out on Black people ever since. In a timeline where the most conservative states have an Overton Window centred on Scott Alexander, such a hypothesis would be less dangerous, and could potentially be safely acknowledged in the legislatures at a lower standard.
(If the genetic hypothesis were confirmed to the same confidence as the 'sucking smoke into your lungs will kill you' hypothesis, I would favour redirecting the money currently spent on sensitivity training into researching methods of increasing IQ.)
Not necessarily; if the genetic hypothesis is true, then, while Black underperformance is the result of discrimination, no human beings of any race are to blame; furthermore, if you anthropomorphise Nature as a Black woman, as in this Apple advert....
(When I saw that advert, I wanted to see someone call security, then cut to the interrogation room on NCIS, Leroy Jethro Gibbs comes in, slams down that picture of a botfly larva emerging from a child's eye, and asks her what she has to say for herself.)
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