GuyOnInternet
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User ID: 1177
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
You get it. That's exactly what I'm referring to.
I really like your point about atheism. I've noticed something perhaps similar with the rise of being "spiritual". It more strikes me as someone wanting to have their cake and eat it too; they want the palliative benefits of religion without having to suffer from the way religion is regarded culturally. In other words, they want the benefits of religion but they also want to be cool and progressive.
Also a good point about true open mindedness coming from a place of principal and not simple agreeance. I do agree that the tendency to determine one's conclusion and then reverse engineer the argument is all too common. I suppose this has probably been common to some extent throughout human history, but what strikes me as unique is that this psychology has infected institutional thinking as well. It doesn't seem that there are really any adults left in the room on that regard; institution managers who engage in the boring, almost technocratic practice of simply assessing the information and then making the right decision based on that.
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
verb - being open to new ideas
noun - a specific set of ideas that are regarded as the open minded ideas.
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
It doesn't matter if you think it should or shouldn't exist, all that matters is this tendency does exist.
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
There are many out there, mostly progressives in my experience, who confuse open mindedness (verb) with open-mindedness (noun). The noun version of it often assumes that open-mindedness refers to a set of specific outlooks and convictions, and not the simple act of being open to new and/or different views.
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
I think you're right but my understanding is the direct cause was that startups were facing shaky circumstances so they started to pull their cash, so the bank needed to sell the treasuries they were holding, but because they purchased them in a lower rate environment and longer dated bonds are more vulnerable to interest rate risk, they simply weren't able to get enough money from the sale of those bonds to cover their liabilities (in this case the deposits).
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
We're heading into a period of elevated interest rates, an increased focus on cash flow for new companies (as opposed to quick growth), and likely recession. I'm not sure startups were going to be a major influence in the short to medium term anyway because of this, and I'm a believer that authors of mistakes should have to bear the consequences if we want to learn from those mistakes and gain the ability to hedge against them in the future.
In short, while things are still playing out, I'm not sure this is going to be catastrophic in any substantive way, and am inclined to believe that this will be good in the long term. It was stupid of a bank to cater solely to one industry segment in the first place, let alone one as volatile and vulnerable to insolvency as tech startups.
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
No that's definitely creepy and he deserves to be regarded as such in real life. But I would agree that if he's saying he knows it was fucked up and doesn't know what he's doing, that the comments are over the top.
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
So would a CEO/politician/scientist etc. that grew up in similar circumstances not fit that criteria?
I think it also gets back to the issue of this not being specific to the black community, but rather any community that is either middle class and below or lower middle class and below, in which case, while this is going to be a more common phenomenon in the black community owing to their lower share of wealth, it is being unnecessarily racialized.
My primary view of these issues is that they are not necessarily grounded in race and are, therefore, not mostly the result of systemic prejudice, but rather they are largely a function of growing up in a poor socioeconomic environment. And because black people disproportionately grow up in poor socioeconomic communities, there is a tendency to attribute race as the cause, as opposed to race existing adjacent to the cause.
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
That does appear to be the strongest argument I’ve seen on this thread. That what really matters is local role models. But the corollary from there is that this is not an issue that is specific to the black community, but rather to those who didn’t grow up in wealthy families/communities.
However, the only thing that argument doesn’t address is that it’s black entertainers who fill that role for these kids, which are obviously not people they know from their communities. Which would suggest that they aren’t just selecting from local role models.
I think to some extent it’s simply that entertainers represent an avenue towards quick money. And athletics and rap are to some extent fundamentally of the black culture (rap in particular), so they receive a degree of elevation in the black community that enhances the degree of appeal.
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
(Copying and pasting the first part from another comment because I have the same question)
So are you saying it’s more that they don’t know people in their personal lives and community’s to look up to as role models? I can see the merit in that, but at the same time by virtue of the fact that rappers and athletes are often who fill that gap it doesn’t seem like the issue is a lack of local role models, as most black people don’t know, or even know anyone who knows, Lebron or Future.
I’m also wondering what you would say the analog for these role models is in white communities.
I would also counter that local role models that represent more accessible forms of success are more confined to upper middle class and above families. And while most people in that strata are white, most white people are not in that strata. So it would appear that most white people probably suffer from the same lack of accessible and realistic role models.
And I will be the first one to concede that that is a little-discussed privilege enjoyed by the upper middle class +, as I grew up lower middle class (and white) and am currently entering that upper strata. But relative to my peers who grew up in that strata I’ve really had to do a lot of guess work and just make professional decisions based on lessons learned from failure, as I didn’t really know anyone I could look to for advice or as a model to emulate. For instance, I didn’t know what an investment banker was until my mid 20s.
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
So are you saying it’s more that they don’t know people in their personal lives and community’s to look up to as role models? I can see the merit in that, but at the same time by virtue of the fact that rappers and athletes are often who fill that gap it doesn’t seem like the issue is a lack of local role models, as most black people don’t know, or even know anyone who knows, Lebron or Future.
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
I've frequently heard that a big problem, and part of why so many young black kids look up to rappers and athletes as role models, is that there just aren't many good role models for them to look up to. And that was a point I'd previously conceded. But when you think about it, that doesn't actually make sense. It's true that black people should have more equitable representation in positions of power, but there are some that exist in positions of power and they don't seem to be regarded as role models within the black community - at least not to the extent that the issue actually seems to be a lack of black role models to choose from. Like there should be more black CEOs and scientists, but there are enough out there to serve as role models, but they simply don't seem to be regarded in that way. There has obviously been a black president and there are many black members of congress. It's not like there is such a paucity of them that the only possible person a young black kid could look up to is someone like Future. It's true that only 6% of CEOs in the US are black, but I'd bet good money that the average black person can't name a single one (and for the record neither can I), and the same is true for the six black CEOs that head fortune 500 companies. If there is such a demand for positive black role models, why are none of those six executives widely regarded as such?
I guess my question is to those who say that the only role models available to young black kids are entertainers, what do you mean? Why do the above examples not suffice to the point that there are just no role models for young black kids to look up to?
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
I would agree that the culture war movements in the right are largely just a reaction to the left.
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
That sounds plausible. Can you elaborate on that?
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
I don't disagree, but what's interesting is even just last year or perhaps the year before the view was that the left is fundamentally a collection of different interest groups. They've always been perceived as being more fragmented, which is to some extent a necessary function of the fact that they commit so passionately to given causes, which themselves are typically focused on a given group. Especially because those causes usually compete to some extent for primacy within a hierarchy of suffering, the end goal being which group suffers and experiences prejudice the most.
But to some extent your comment is what I'm talking about. I don't think that description is inaccurate, but I'm skeptical that it tells the whole story. I think intellectually there is much more cohesiveness on the right, and it the most relevant split is between the alt right and the conventional right. That also strikes me as somewhat of a progressive's conception of the right, in that it frames the primary binding force of each segment of the right as the perception that they are being targeted by the right. That glosses over the true character of the right in the way I'm suggesting Reuters and Bloomberg do. It's accurate in that those groups do, generally, vehemently oppose progressives, but it's a pejorative articulation of that view, in that it frames it as necessarily conspiratorial, and implies that their view of progressives are of poor enough substance to not warrant further examination.
But, similarly, those groups you describe on the right have always been present and have coexisted in harmony to the point that they were able to operate as a unified front.
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
I think we are collectively stuck in a sort of counterpoint/anti-establishmentarian state of mind. Everything must be explained and understood in a way that jives with the assumption that the establishment is rotten. And this is an idea that permeates both sides of the political spectrum. The left claims it is rotten from systemic prejudice. The right is a bit more complex and varies based on the part of the political spectrum, with the alt-right exhibiting the most purity in this respect.
But they all have their preferred poor babies and elites. And I think that’s really how they each connect into the counterpoint/anti-establishment framework, through populism.
The left fails to understand their considerable influence in the institutions they champion, and their downfall will be their religious commitment to perfection, as required by the revolutionary and ideological underpinnings that define them. i cannot fathom an outcome that would lead to this collective acceptance that social justice has been achieved, and it’s time to move on. I think it will probably just fade away, as it already has to some extent, as people fail to see these convictions as an accurate description of the world and, probably more precisely, will fail to see the provided solutions as having merit.
I find the right to be harder to analyze. I think a big part of it is that I am in a progressive bubble and don’t know any republicans. The only views of the republicans I am exposed to are those provided by progressives who would characterize republicans as unspeakably evil regardless of what the republicans were actually doing. it leaves me with this feeling that I don’t actually understand the Republican Party. I don’t actually know what they are like, as I don’t actually know anyone who identifies as a republican or even right leaning. And the media I consume, Bloomberg and Reuters (while I do believe is among the highest quality out there) does have a bias and I don’t believe it accurately reflects the republicans. The articles appear to be very unbiased, but the issues and perspectives the authors feel warrant an article, as well as what the author finds problematic about those issues and subjects, are where the bias is evident. The bias is more structural than anything.
I think the biggest reason I don’t know what’s up with the right is that there just isn’t as high a degree of political involvement on the right, except among the alt-right. On the left, especially among progressives, the spirit of activism is much more core to their identity. So they’re much more outspoken about it. But on the right, they aren’t, as a whole and philosophically, based on the assumption that injustices are rampant and need to be remedied. They’re, philosophically, the establishment party. And defending the status quo just doesn’t rally people in the same way that claims of injustice do.
And I think at this point in time there is a view that being overtly right-leaning is a liability. That it can get you cancelled, that can get you alienated. And it has merit, especially when businesses are going out of their way to demonstrate their foundational commitment to progressivism. That’s very alienating to anyone who leans right, and if you lean right the feeling is that if it becomes apparent that you do not support progressive objectives you are vulnerable to alienation. Those who share a bias don’t see the bias. Progressives don’t see the threat of alienation, they don’t see the threat of cancellation because they are the ones perpetuating it, and they simply are not threatened by it.
I think there’s a latent yet widespread opposition to the institutionalization of progressivism.
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
People being outraged that teams were prevented from wearing the OneLove armbands (to show solidarity with LBGTQ rights amid the backdrop of Qatari views on homosexuality) are ignorant, arrogant, and dogmatic. This is part of what other regions of the world mean when they say the west forces our values onto other people. You don't get to go into another region of the world for a sport as global as soccer and then shit on them for not sharing the same views as you. Not everything needs to be about activism. I don't have the stats, but I have to imagine most people are not in favor of gay marriage in the middle east and, as much as i am in favor of gay marriage, you have to respect that. I mean it wasn't even codified legally in the US until fairly recently. If you want to interact with other countries, you have to accept that they see things differently than you and have different values. This strikes me as being a strong instance of 'i am so open minded that i am close minded'.
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
This is ignorant about the nature of identity and how humans work. Identity is on what basis we define the us versus the them. And that is reinforced when there is a common historical and current experience. People gravitate to those who have had that same experience as them; race is not just some arbitrary aspect of who someone is. To assume the contrary is just obtuse. Like sure it would be great if we could re-engineer human nature, but we can't. you can't just ignore something as a reality because you think it's less than savory.
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
The only way I think this is a well intended and sound point is if you didn't sense that it was sarcasm.
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
It's 2022 and you don't see how people who are not white might identify with their skin color even though you don't? When you meet black people you genuinely don't think their race is part of their identity?
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
Some of them have different hair colours as well. That would've mischling-ed to a uniform mouse-brown over thousands of years too. So why does the skin irk you, but not the hair?
It's not that the hair is not a point of inconsistency it's that the hair is not part of the broader problem i brought up here. if this was a discussion of rings of power, i probably would've brought it up.
Dragons are part of the premise. The premise of the show is that this is a world in which dragons exist. It's something that I know I'm supposed to suspend disbelief for in every case because dragons don't exist and everyone knows that. but it's not like there are dragons and no one acknowledges it. i mean the true counterpart to them treating the dragons like they do race was if dragons were just flying overhead and no one in the movie acknowledged it. The whole plot revolves around that. I know that I am supposed to say 'alright dragons are not real, they have them here, so this is obviously a world where dragons exist' but it isn't clear that race never matters, which is evidenced by the clip i posted where the character in house of dragons clearly stated that his character knew they weren't her kids because they were white (in a youtube commentary). It's a basic reality of human existence that kids look like their parents. I mean if one of the characters married a lizard they would explain why that occurred; they wouldn't just be like 'if you think it needs to be explained why a woman would marry a lizard, YOU are the problem'
Frankfurt School communist sleeper cells out to willfully commit historical vandalism as a means of waging fifth generation warfare, so I am in the sad position of believing both sides of the debate to be guilty of what their opponents accuse them of. FML.
Yeah I don't know man given the previous comment I'm not sure how you can frame yourself as a neutral observer that sees issue on both sides, as you clearly agree with the logic of one side.
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
i share your view on rings of power tbh. wanted to like it, was excited for it, but it's pretty underwhelming.
concerning the black elf, if there is a rational justification for it I'm fine with it. but each of these species of humans, e.g. the elves, is very genetically distinct and appears to mostly stick to themselves with respect to mating. i think there could plausibly be a rational explanation for it but given that all the other elves are white they've gotta give some sort of explanation
definitely agree with your third paragraph. doing this sort of thing sort of implies that all logic be suspended if it's to achieve a DEI end. I don't know why people think this way of doing it is the only way to achieve diversity in film. it almost strikes me as a power move: this doesn't make sense but this idea is so supreme that we can make you accept it either way, even though there's a more reasonable way for us to do this.
the rest of your comment, also disagree with. we are often expected to suspend disbelief in movies but there's always an explanation for it; absent that we are left to say 'i think i was probably supposed to suspend disbelief there but I'm not sure. so this other thing that's happening doesn't seem sensible; are they going to explain that or am i just supposed to know I'm supposed to suspend disbelief there, or did i miss something?'
This truly strikes me as something we are going to look back on in 10 years as an indication of the degree to which absurd thought was allowed into the mainstream.
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
what you're saying only makes sense if people do not believe that another person's race makes them like them. And people gravitating to those of the same race of them is a pretty strong corollary from people gravitating to those who are like them. To suggest that race would not make someone gravitate to someone else is to say that race is an insignificant part of people's identities, which I'm not sure how you can maintain in 2022.
Also, this was found based on a very quick google. I'm not sure why you don't think someone has looked into this before, especially given how prominent DEI is. I mean anti-racism is an entire academic field. I can, in the abstract, appreciate the approach of your convictions only going as far as the research, but you can only maintain a counterpoint on those grounds if you've done the research and found that the link has not been found to exist. Not if you just haven't looked into it, especially given that this is a fairly obvious point that is a very strong corollary from a pretty obvious point that has been proven.
GuyOnInternet
1yr ago
alright fair point. i didn't get past the first episode.
IIRC though it was the dad that was black. I don't know if it was a main character that I'm referring to. It was just in the first episode when they introduced the hobbits.
But that's sort of my point. In some cases we are supposed to suspend this disbelief and in others we are not, and there is no particular indicator to determine when this belief is supposed to be suspended. Like we're supposed to know that the black mom is the stepmother but not know why there's one black elf in a community of white elves?
I remember after the Roe ruling many people were saying things like ‘fuck America’ and some were burning American flags. And I also remember speaking to someone who was maybe 23 (before the roe ruling) and she said something to the effect of ‘I know in my generation (gen z) it’s not really socially acceptable to say you like the US’ (and for context she was an American). And this jives with my observation that the impact of identity politics has been people focusing more on what makes us different than what makes us similar. But something that has kind of thrown me off is if you meet someone from a developing country where terrible shit is happening they will say ‘fuck the government’ but they still love their country and will say so. But in the US, the connection of those on the far left to their country is so tenuous that if a single policy is passed that they do not like, they completely disavow the US in a way that I’ve only seen Iranians do. And what makes it even crazier is that progressives tend to come from wealthier families, so, unlike those I mentioned in developing countries, they have actually had a pretty privileged life that has presumably treated them pretty well - but the second some law is passed that they don’t like they will disavow it. It strikes me as a unique form of privilege that is so great and imbedded in the person that they fail to actually assess the nature of their own privilege; they are so oblivious that they would oppose with every fiber of their being the very system that has given them so many advantages.
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