Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
No bio...
User ID: 732
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1yr ago
I, for one, also knew that @self_made_human is Indian. You can’t replace me just yet, Claude!
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1yr ago
I picked such a perfect time to end my decade-long sojourn in the wilderness of Jags fandom and to come home to the Chargers. Jim Harbaugh has this entire team massively overperforming, to the point where I am currently ruminating over how much I’d be willing to spend for a ticket if they end up hosting a playoff game. The sky is the limit for what this team can achieve once its onerous cap obligations are finally cleared out and Joe Hortiz can truly start crafting the team in his and Harbaugh’s image.
I’m on record stating that the Chargers will never have an organic base of local support in the Los Angeles market, but honestly if they keep things on the current trajectory, perhaps I’ll have to eat my words. Even if they get absolutely BTFO in the playoffs this season, it will still be the best Chargers season I’ve seen in at least a decade, and will have filled me with (probably dangerous) hope.
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1yr ago
You and I must be running in very different circles. Of course, I’m a fan of a team in the AFC West, so of course I’m exposed to a constant stream of Chiefs hate. However, even in neutral subs like /r/NFL, I feel like I still see a ton of people complaining about the Chiefs, saying how sick of the Chiefs they are, making constant jokes about the refs colluding with the Chiefs, etc. The Patriots got a ton of shit for Brady being an overexposed pretty boy, and the Chiefs are getting that as well with the Travis Kelce Taylor Swift stuff.
You are correct that the Patriots got additional shit for the cheating allegations (Deflategate, Sypgate, etc.) which the Chiefs have not received, but I still think there’s plenty of fatigue with the Chiefs that will really start to boil over if they win another Super Bowl this year.
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1yr ago
If you’re going to tag me, do it right!
At no point have I denied that high-skilled minorities are liable to use their political and cultural power to shift the policy and culture toward their own interests and away from the interests of the legacy population. If you recall, that was exactly what I said was the crux of the argument against increasing “high-skilled immigration”. My whole point is simply that this is a distinct and separate issue from the issues caused by underclass immigrants. The model minorities are (at least potentially) bad, but not for the same reason the non-model ones are.
Right, I don’t think anyone is denying that most human beings are always going to want to date within their own race. (Race being broadly construed here.) Most black men are most physically attracted to black women, and they tend to value the physical traits that are most typical of black women. Black men seem to go absolutely wild for Serena Williams, for example, whereas I think most white men find her somewhat mannish.
But if we’re talking about the subset of each racial group who are willing to date outside their own race, the disparities in the patterns we observe are surely instructive. Something like 20% of Asian-American women, as I recall, date outside their own race; of those, the vast majority go with white guys, and almost none with black guys or Latinos. Since white men aren’t that much genetically closer to Asians than black men are, it can’t simply be that dating preferences move along a predictable gradient of genetic similarity. Patterns between whites and Latinos are somewhat closer; while Latina women are more likely to date white men than white women are to date Latino men, the difference is not all that large.
I hesitate to stake out a strong position that some races are “just objectively more attractive than others”. I’m willing to say that if such an objective ranking exists, Australian Aborigines and Melanesians are at the bottom of it, with maybe African Pygmies also in competition, but past that, I agree that things like differential rates of obesity and vast cultural gaps confound the picture too much to draw definitive conclusions. It’s probably true that on a global scale, white men (including Jewish men and other Mediterranean ethnicities) probably beat out other races’ men in terms of the preferences of women willing to date outside their default race; the rankings for women are more complicated, with white (again, including Jewish) and Asian women fairly neck-and-neck, and Latina women who manage to stay thin also making a respectable showing.
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1yr ago
Obesity explains almost all the racial dating gap between BW - WM and BM - WW
Ehhhh I don’t know about that. It’s obviously a significant factor — many black men certainly seem very interested in overweight white women, whereas nearly no white men are interested in comparably overweight black women — but surely there are a number of other important contributing factors as well. I’m not sure why you would be so dismissive of facial structure as an important consideration; I think it’s fair to say that the modal female Sub-Saharan facial phenotype is “more masculine” (i.e. less gracile, heavier features) than the modal female Eurasian facial phenotype.
And obviously personality and cultural differences are very important here as well. Black women, on average, have more domineering, more brash, and more extroverted personalities than white and Asian women. It’s understandable that many white men would be put off by this, whereas some number of white women would conversely be attracted to the similarly brash and extroverted personalities of black men. Men want someone feminine and demure, while women want someone forceful and confident.
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1yr ago
So, let’s take black women — and my sense is that the plight of black women is the primary subtext of your comment.
I have met, interacted with, worked alongside, and befriended numerous black women over the course of my life. I think I have about as much intimate exposure to black women, black culture, etc., as any other white American who has lived in a large diverse city and attended public schools in a non-wealthy area. My perceptions of them are not informed by stereotypes and media portrayals, but by direct and repeated interpersonal contact.
I would never deny that there are attractive, feminine, intelligent, pleasant, and sexually-appealing black women. I’ve met several myself, I’ve flirted with them, I’ve even kissed a few. Like most men of any race, I prefer mixed and/or lighter-skinned black women with gracile features and smooth hair, rather than dark-skinned heavily African-looking women with heavy features and kinky/poofy hair. That’s not to say I’ve never seen or met attractive dark-skinned, non-mixed black women — I think most men would agree that, for example, Simone Biles is a very attractive woman — but they’re fewer and farther between.
That being said, it simply is verifiably true that rates of obesity are significantly higher among black women than they are among white women, and that’s to say nothing of Asian women. Average differences in temperament (whether you want to identify them as culturally-informed, or genetic, or some combination of the two) are well-documented, and so are average differences in physical build, and even more subtle things like smell. Black women smell different from white women. Their skin feels different. It’s understandable that someone whose primary romantic/sexual experience is with white women might find intimate contact with black women to be unfamiliar, slightly disconcerting, and just less familiar.
Furthermore, when it comes to the relatively small segment of black women who are genuinely hot, feminine, intelligent, and able to perform middle-class respectability, they generally seem to find themselves catapulted into high-status roles which give them the pick of the litter of nearly all high-status black men, plus some portion of high-status non-black men. Those women are highly unlikely to come into contact with lower-status white guys like me — both because they are unlikely to share the cultural hobbies which would put them into everyday casual interaction with me, and also because they’re too busy being wined and dined by wealthier men than I.
So, for the average white guy, the odds of regularly encountering the kinds of black women who may interest him are quite low, and the probability of both him and her being xenophilic enough to overcome significant cultural differences and fall for each other is even lower. It’s not primarily because they are stereotyping each other; rather, they are fairly accurately perceiving each other, and deciding that the juice isn’t worth the squeeze.
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1yr ago
Not necessarily! One of his messages that I did see said something like, “The only thing the German government respects is violence. I’m going to have to do something violent to get them to respect me.” It’s entirely possible that he was merely indifferent to the suffering of the people he maimed and killed; that the purpose of the attack was not to make them suffer, but rather to have the moment of their suffering become a political flashpoint.
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1yr ago
Did he hate Germans? Or did he hate the German government? I haven’t seen any evidence of the former, although I’d be perfectly happy to be confronted with some.
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1yr ago
Not at all. Her commercial peak began in her mid- to late-20s and has persisted well into her 30s.
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1yr ago
I’ll consolidate my replies to @SecureSignals, @Walterodim, and @Belisarius, since they’re all making similar points.
Firstly, I agree that this guy should not have been allowed to live in Germany. Now, to be clear, he came as an asylum seeker in 2006, nearly a decade before Merkel’s Mistake; at the time, Arab migration to Germany was, as I understand it, quite minimal (it was Turks who were by far the largest source of Middle Eastern immigration at the time) and it’s significantly more understandable that he would have been let in. There was no large insular Arab community in Germany into which he could have ensconced himself to obviate the need to assimilate. He was fluent in English, and had clear and explicit anti-Islam sentiments. He seems basically like an Ayaan Hirsi Ali type, and given how live a threat Islamist terror seemed at that time, I think it was understandable to expect this guy to act as a potentially impactful voice steering young Arab men away from Islamist radicalization. (And, to be clear, it’s entirely plausible that he did have some impact, substantial or not, of that nature at the time.) Given what we know now in hindsight, not only about him personally but about the larger effects of Arab immigration to Europe, it’s clear that the stance toward asylum seekers should have been far more exclusionary than it was at the time.
However, I want to make sure that opposition to Arab immigration is based on specific, articulable, predictive claims. I oppose large-scale Arab immigration because of the specific qualities that I expect most Arabs (and, especially, most Arabs choosing to emigrate to Europe) to possess, and because of the specific actions they are likely to take and the motivations behind those actions. Let’s look at what specific problems/pathologies I expect to accompany large-scale Arab immigration, and analyze the extent to which this guy embodied those pathologies:
I expect Arabs to create culturally-insular ethnic enclaves, in which they are able to continue to replicate the cultural practices of their homeland rather than assimilating. Well, this guy was fluent in English, and had already marked himself as not only culturally-distinct from the vast majority of Arabs, but actively in opposition to them. It is true that he brought baggage and cultural grievances with him from his homeland; however, those grievances toward Arab Muslims are pretty much exactly the same grievances that liberal Westerners had about Arab Muslims at the time. “They’re culturally backward, they mistreat women, their culture is anti-Western, and anti-science, they’re susceptible to radical jihadist beliefs.” All of those grievances are true and valid! This is the Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Ayaan Hirsi Ali line about Arab Muslims. They’re not the sort of arcane inter-ethnic blood feuds and tribal jockeying we normally associate with foreign ethnic groups immigrating and co-mingling in places like the U.K. and Canada.
I expect a large percentage of Arab immigrants to be uneducated, unskilled, to spend a long time (potentially their entire lives) unemployed and on welfare. Well, this guy was a doctor — okay fine, a psychiatrist, so barely a doctor, but at least it’s a well-paying job that kept him gainfully employed and interacting economically with the German public. He certainly doesn’t pattern-match to the average Arab in Germany; as @Walterodim points out, he’s more like the average educated Indian in Canada.
I expect large numbers of Arab men to fall into lives of crime, both petty and organized. Well, again, this guy does not appear to have any criminal record. He hasn’t fallen in with Arab gangs, he hasn’t become some listless glowering thug milling about the town square acting like a savage.
I expect some small number of Arab men to commit serious acts of terrorism, motivated by jihadist beliefs and by a hatred of their host societies. This is where we have to carefully discern what happened here. In pretty much all of the other terror attacks committed by Arabs in Europe, the ideological motivations were clearly religious and specifically Islamist in character. The Bataclan attackers, the guys driving their trucks into markets, the guys cutting priests’ heads off — they all make their Islamist beliefs very explicit. That’s not why this guy appears to have done what he did.
So, why did he? If we want to talk about ideology, his views are difficult to pattern-match to other large ideological trends. On the one hand, he was very consistent about Germany’s need to resist Islamization. In that sense, he aligns very strongly with the AfD and other right-wing nationalist groups. However, he also wanted more immigration of a very specific class of Arab Middle Easterners: ex-Muslim/anti-Islam refugees, and particularly educated women. In that sense he’s not only similar to the more moderate right (what wignats derisively call “the kosher right) but also to some of the more eclectic right-wingers who say the West should let in plenty of attractive female refugees, while cutting off all or nearly all male immigration. And of course his stated commitment to progressive values such as feminism and economic leftism puts him almost more in line with the sort of leftist terrorism Germany faced in the 70’s. (Although that terrorism had a strong pro-Palestinian valence, whereas this guy was a Zionist.) But in this case his choice of targets doesn’t really seem to align with any expected ideological movements. This was no act of right-wing nationalist terrorism — he’s no Anders Breivik or Brenton Tarrant — because his victims were (at least presumably) white Germans. He really did seem to resent Germany and to want to strike a blow against it on behalf of his in-group, but his in-group isn’t Arabs as a whole, it isn’t Muslims, and it isn’t even Saudis. It appears to just be “ex-Muslim apostates (especially women) fleeing the Middle East.” I was joking yesterday, “Is this the first Reddit Atheist terror attack?” Yes, he’s a brown Arab, but in terms of his worldview he’s got more in common with murdered Dutch anti-Muslim filmmaker Theo Van Gogh than with the Muslims who killed him.
So, in what ways is this guy’s terror attack similar to previous acts of Arab terrorism? What patterns does it match? Certainly in terms of its specific methodology it’s similar to other terror attacks we’ve seen in Europe, both with the use of a car driving through a Christmas market, and with the (thankfully unused) explosive device. But in terms of its motivations I think it’s sufficiently different from previous acts of terrorism that it’s not really instructive. While obviously there are genetically-influenced psychological differences between population groups, and Arabs are a population group with heritable traits, I don’t think anyone’s found any evidence for a “terrorism gene” among that population. If Arabs tend to be more violent than Europeans, it’s because they tend to be lower-IQ and to live in low-trust backward societies wherein violence is an effective and sanctioned way to obtain power and resources. It’s not because some voice in the back of their head, whispering to them like the Orc god Gruumsh, instructs them to drive their cars into crowds.
I saw some DR commentator (probably Captive Dreamer) say, “If that’s the model migrant, imagine how much worse the rest are.” This is probably effective propaganda, but it doesn’t seem very intellectually substantive. This guy’s pathologies, and the reasons he shouldn’t have been in Europe, were of a markedly different character from those of the true dregs of the Arab world which have been washing up on the shores of Europe. The “model migrants” in, say, Canada are problematic largely because they use their political power to facilitate bringing in more of their countrymen. In that narrow sense, this guy’s story is certainly instructive. It is true that his #1 loyalty was to his in-group, which did not include most white Germans, and that in the end he was willing to commit savage violence against his host country in order to (in some twisted, confused, politically aimless way) earn concessions for people like himself.
There are, though, two distinct sets of concerns when it comes to the immigration discussion - one is about the dangers presented by the importation of educated foreigners who will use political and cultural power to advocate for increased immigration, and who will dilute the political and cultural power of the native population. Whatever you want to say about these types of people, likelihood of committing terror attacks has simply never been a plausible vector of attack against them. This is, so far as I can tell, the first high-profile attack of this kind committed by a guy with this background and these specific beliefs, and I don’t think we’ll see many more examples in the future.
The other half of the immigration discussion is about low-skilled, unassimilable, criminally-inclined young, susceptible-to-jihadist-radicalization men and their welfare-dependent spouses. While this has largely been the story of Arab immigration to Europe (particularly post-2015) it is not this guy’s story. Whatever he is, he’s not an example of that. He did assimilate to an ideology with a lot of Western adherents; he was just willing to do what few of those Westerners would have done as a result of that ideology. (And I want people to be careful in their speculations about why he was willing to do so.)
People like Keith Woods would like to essentially merge these conversations and say that it’s all the same conversation: All foreigners in Europe are bad, none of them belong there, even the supposed best of them bring problems, they’ll never be assimilable, they’ll always work against us. And what I’m saying is that I don’t think this is credible. There are foreigners in Europe — for example, East Asian immigrants — who have not, so far as I can tell, created any problems for their host societies. If Germany let in 100,000 Vietnamese immigrants tomorrow, my prediction is that those immigrants would flourish, as they have in America. It’s not simply “being foreign” that makes Arab immigrants a bad fit for European society; it’s their specific traits, the specific beliefs they have, their lower IQ and lower impulse control, their hatred for Western norms, their parasitic dependency on the largesse of the welfare state, and the difficulty in integrating them into society. This guy’s problems don’t really map onto any of those concerns, except in a roundabout and strained way.
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1yr ago
I mean you basically just admitted you haven’t listened to very much of her music, so why should anyone take seriously your opinions regarding its composition qualities?
So, here’s where I somewhat agree with you: There are far fewer people nowadays who define themselves in terms of their relationship to a single genre of music, in opposition to other genres. My mother is a traditional Gen X metalhead; she was going to thrash metal shows as a teenager in the 80’s, and has made “I listen to metal music” a central pillar of her identity for her entire adult life. I was raised around this (by her, at least — my father’s musical tastes are significantly more broad) and I have a very intimate exposure to the way that culture operated both when she was younger and when I was first entering into it.
One of its central tenets was: we hate pop music, we’re separate from mainstream culture, we’re proud to listen to metal and nothing but metal. Watching TV shows like VH1’s Most Metal Moments, this was driven home to me; being “metal” meant hating mainstream culture, and it usually also meant partying extremely hard and engaging in varying degrees of antisocial behavior. (Example: Mötley Crüe bassist Nikki Sixx fatally overdosed on heroin, but was resuscitated back to life. He partied so hard he literally died and lived to tell the tale! How metal is that?!)
Needless to say, I found these aspects of the culture extremely cringe and alienating, combined with the wanton interpersonal violence I witnessed and at times experienced in the “mosh pit” at metal shows. I drifted away from the culture, even as I continued to be interested in the music. I ceased to make “listening to metal, and making sure other people know I listen to metal” an important part of my self-image, and I embraced listening to a wide variety of genres. I saw no reason to feel embarrassed to listen to Job For A Cowboy and to Katy Perry in the same day. I think that most people my age and younger have embraced this sense of being musically and culturally omnivorous. Even someone who decides to cultivate a visual aesthetic of being a metalhead — the piercings, the tattoos, the dyed black hair, the black band T-shirts and ripped jeans and denim jackets with iron-on patches — is very often okay with also partaking in the fruits of other subcultures. In other words, millennials and zoomers don’t do “guilty pleasures”. If something brings me pleasure — especially something as harmless and anodyne as listening to a particular song — why on earth should I feel guilty about it? So yes, in that sense, subcultures have become more permeable and less dedicated to exclusivity.
As for specific musical genres/subgenres that have only become popular in the last 5-10 years, I could name a few: K-pop, hyperpop, synthwave/vaporwave, drill rap, rap-country, and, as you named, phonk. I’d also point to significant shifts or evolutions in particular genres which had been previously established. For example, Latin pop and reggaeton have undergone something of a renaissance and mass popularization with acts like Bad Bunny, J Balvin, Ozuna, Rosalía, and Anitta. Hip-hop and pop-punk have begun an interesting fusion at the hands of acts like Machine Gun Kelly, Sueco, POORSTACY, Iann Dior, and Magnolia Park. And then in the realm of indie rock, there’s been a sort of refinement of the vague constellation of the new-wave/post-punk-influenced dance-rock sound popularized in the aughts by bands like The 1975, The Killers, Phoenix, and Two Door Cinema Club. Newer bands like The Strike, Sub-Radio, Wild Cub, and The Griswolds have strengthened the 80’s synthpop influences, and have also integrated elements of disco as well as some of the African-influenced sounds from Paul Simon’s Graceland album.
As to the question of whether young people attend concerts as often as they did thirty years ago, my assumption is that they probably don’t, but I don’t have any strong data to back that up. Certainly some newer acts like Charli XCX, Chappell Roan, Travis Scott, and Khalid can still fill up arenas of young people. They’re still breaking into the overculture, despite none of them merely aping older musical styles.
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1yr ago
So, this is very interesting. I wonder: was his plan to essentially make this look like an Islamist attack, to stir up hostility toward Muslim immigration? I imagine he understood that everyone would, justifiably, assume that an Arab man driving his car into a Christmas market (with an explosive device inside, no less!) would be interpreted by all sides as an Islamist terror attack. Maybe he was hoping nobody would identify him and discover his Twitter account? If he did expect people to find his account, I really have no idea what political outcome (if any) he was hoping to facilitate as a result of this attack.
On the one hand, his background as a former refugee from the Middle East makes him an incredibly unwieldy weapon for progressives to use to discredit immigration skeptics; on the other hand, his support for the AfD and his criticism of Muslim immigration makes him pretty much impossible to use as a cudgel by the right wing. Some commentators, such as Keith Woods, are taking the position that this proves that all Arab immigration to Europe should be cut off, because even the apparently liberal/assimilated ones are still ticking time bombs of potential violence; this seems fairly tendentious even to me, given what we know about the guy so far.
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1yr ago
Hey, I read non-fiction! 😡
I do engage with a ton of fictional content, although it’s generally not in the form of novels. (I’ve recently started reading novels again as part of a sort of two-person book club with my mother, but it’s still not generally my preferred mode of imaginative reading.)
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1yr ago
Sorry, when referring to Taylor Swift as a teenybopper I meant that her music's primary target demographic is and always has been teenage girls, not that she herself is a teenager.
This is obviously false, though. Her primary target demographic, throughout her career, has been, “people of roughly the same age as Taylor Swift.” As she has aged, her fanbase has aged along with her, and her lyrical subject matter has evolved concurrently. Yes, many girls who are currently teenage are into Taylor Swift, but she doesn’t have the cachet among that demographic that she did 10 years ago, and the majority of people at her shows are millennials, none of whom are currently teenaged.
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1yr ago
Has anyone actually seen a 'hipster' in real life recently? Is anyone still seriously going around trying to live the Goth or Emo lifestyle, are Metalheads still a distinct, recognizable class of music fans?
Yes, to all of the above. Have you actually been to any metal shows lately? I have, and I assure you that there are still tons of people there who are very visually-identifiable as “metalheads”. Sleeve tattoos, facial piercings, black band T-shirts, etc. There are still plenty of goths, too. To the extent that “hipster” ever meant anything coherent, there are still plenty of hipsters, too.
There are also plenty of musical subgenres all over — both new entries in genres you’d recognize, and totally new genres you wouldn’t know anything about unless you sought them out. Young people are still innovating musically, no more and no less than they were thirty years ago. Perhaps you are just out of touch with what’s new and hip among the new generation? There’s no shame in that; it happens to everyone.
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1yr ago
The relationship between your food and you should be healthy.
I guess I don’t see anything unhealthy about the thought process, “Somebody who does this for a living, and whose job it is to cook food, is likely going to do a better job than I would at making this dish. Also, that person is on the clock at that restaurant anyway and would still be preparing someone else’s food, even if it’s not mine, whereas I’m off the clock and could be using this time for leisure instead of for cooking.”
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1yr ago
They wouldn't say that fat-shaming had no effect on humans, but that it had no positive effect and generally not engage with the serious tradeoffs at play.
They are engaging with the tradeoffs — they just arrive at a different conclusion than you do! Firstly because there’s a very real disagreement about the facts. Again, do you actually have any evidence that fat-shaming contributed significantly to why people were less fat a hundred years ago? I’m not saying it’s implausible, but I do think there’s a lot more going on and that the picture is genuinely quite complicated.
There is no consensus “leftist” position on obesity. Contrary to what you may imagine, dispositions toward the “fat acceptance” movement remain quite varied among progressives. Positions range from “fatness is entirely socially-constructed, there’s actually no serious health problems associated with fatness, why don’t we just rethink our society to make it more accommodating towards the obese” to “there’s clearly some factors, largely outside of the control of individuals, that are making people more fat than they used to be, and until we figure out what those are and how to fix them, it’s just pointlessly cruel to fat-shame people.” Most serious progressives don’t deny that things like portion control and not eating exclusively fast food have some contribution, but they would argue that these are far from the only things going on, such that shaming is not an effective tool in most cases.
And now that the potentially revolutionary technology of semaglutide (Ozempic/Wegovy) offers a concrete solution to what might be making some large percentage of fat people fat, we might now be able to fix the issue without anyone having to get bullied! And now that we do have Ozempic available — and once we get a better understanding of its long-term effects and ways to mitigate any downsides — I think more progressives will be more comfortable utilizing shame as one tool in the toolkit when it comes to people who clearly have the opportunity to be thin and who still choose to be obese instead.
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1yr ago
However, I think leftists ignore the degree to which social attitudes and shaming are part of the very environment that inform our actions.
Huh? What a strange claim. The entire basis of the critical-constructivist worldview at the heart of modern leftist social critique is a hyperfocus on how social attitudes and shaming have a deterministic effect on nearly every aspect of our lives. That’s a key pillar of what they mean by “systemic racism” and “fatphobia” and “heteronormativity”. They think about these things every bit as often as you do, if not more.
The difference is that they believe that reducing the amount of shame individuals experience based on unchosen identity characteristics is a key goal of social justice.
You claim that shaming fat people would have a direct impact on reducing obesity. The leftist rejoinder would have two parts:
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Do we actually have strong evidence that this is true? Sure, people in, say, the 1920’s were less fat than people in the 2020s. And yes, at that time, fat-shaming was also more common. But do we actually have any concrete evidence that there’s a causal relationship between these two phenomena? What if people were less fat because of material factors, such as the prevalence of cigarette smoking, the far greater average level of physical labor performed by the average person on both a professional and domestic basis, and the difference in the chemical composition of foods at the time? (Lack of preservatives, lack of seed oils, etc.) If that’s the case, then people’s relative lack of obesity at the time was not primarily due to some greater level of civilizational virtue, and certainly not primarily due to people consciously endeavoring not to be fat because of the threat of shaming. In other words, those people didn’t earn their thinness in some important moral sense. They simply followed the normal patterns of life at the time, and it happened that those patterns were less lipogenic — no idea if that’s a real word — than the normal patterns of life now. Those same people, even if exposed to the exact same level of social messaging about the dangers of fatness as they were in the 1920s, would still turn out fat nowadays because the material changes in our society make it much more difficult to remain thin given the exact same effort level. So, the shaming doesn’t do much of anything except make people feel miserable about things that are largely out of their control, barring very atypical levels of agency.
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Even if the shaming did have some measurable effect, it’s still morally wrong and we still shouldn’t do it. The tradeoff isn’t worth it. For every one fat person you manage to inspire to lose weight via shaming and bullying, you’ll just have twenty who spiral into depression and self-sabotage. Shaming has highly variable effects depending on the specific traits of the victim; not only that victim’s personality, but also his or her material circumstances. If that individual has a thyroid condition, for example, shaming is very unlikely to produce an impact on that person’s fatness, but is very likely to produce strong feelings of shame which will achieve nothing positive. And of course, this is all without getting into the frankly somewhat selfish, self-aggrandizing, and ugly motives underneath most actual acts of bullying. Bullying is rarely a prosocial act done for the benefit of the bullied; that’s a self-serving narrative concocted after the fact. Shaming degrades the shamer as much as it damages the shamed. It makes society coarser, more mean-spirited, lower-trust, etc. It encourages the worst and most predatory aspects of the human personality. All so maybe on the margins, 10% of fat people will be a bit less fat for some period of time. Not worth it at all!
Now, to be clear, I personally don’t endorse all of this. But it’s a coherent and sophisticated worldview. It’s certainly not that leftists just haven’t thought about shaming and its importance.
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1yr ago
Right, obviously. Just pointing out that Franklin isn’t the only non-president on U.S. currency.
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1yr ago
He's on our money because we put Presidents on money (And Benjamin Franklin, because he was important in founding the nation).
And Alexander Hamilton, who was also never president.
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1yr ago
Also…. just look at the guy.
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1yr ago
Was the Dutch Revolt against the Habsburgs an example of “civic nationalism”, or was it “ethnic consciousness”? How about the unification of Italy? Was that inspired by “Jewish intellectuals”? (A pan-Italian identity is historically attested at least as early as 1741, a century before Marx’s works were published, and a version of the Italian tricolor flag was adopted as early as 1797 by the Cispadane Republic.)
Carol Burnett and Joan Rivers both have her beat by decades. (Whoopi Goldberg also found massive success several years before Ellen did.)
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