Hyperion
11mo ago
In the fossil record you find that the longer a species has survived has no correlation with how long it will survive in the future.
Have you seen these alt right rallies of the last 7 years? Half the people are at least half Hispanic, Asian or Indian. American racial politics is fundamentally blacks vs everyone else. Most of the Asians and Indians who act very woke and talk about white supremacy are just a slightly darker shade of the white progressives they so hope to emulate.
Hyperion
11mo ago
Brahmins in the west, at least America, don't care at all about caste. It's not something relevant here.
Hyperion
11mo ago
The USSR had a constitution very like the American one, but with much less success.
You know except for the freedom of political organization outside the one party rule of the Communist party it was exactly the same.
Hyperion
11mo ago
How is it weird? Leftist always laud authoritarianism when its in their favor. And, criticize it when it is against them. This is the standard that started with Marx and Engels.
Hyperion
11mo ago
True, but rightists have justifications for authoritarianism built into their ideologies. Leftists have to squirm to make up justifications for their tyrants.
Hyperion
11mo ago
In general I agree with your take, at least, as it applies to the USA. But, what about India and its caste system. Discrimination by caste has been extreme there for over a thousand years, at least. The endogamy rates are inhumanly high, even the USA with its miscegenation laws and endemic racism couldn't match the extremeness of Indian caste endogamy. The results are not exactly desirable.
Hyperion
11mo ago
“Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives...
I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it. Suppose any party, in addition to whatever share it may possess of the ability of the community, has nearly the whole of its stupidity, that party must, by the law of its constitution, be the stupidest party; and I do not see why honorable gentlemen should see that position as at all offensive to them, for it ensures their being always an extremely powerful party . . . There is so much dense, solid force in sheer stupidity, that any body of able men with that force pressing behind them may ensure victory in many a struggle, and many a victory the Conservative party has gained through that power."
-John Stuart Mill
I'm confused why you think the caste system is eugenic. Indians, like Jews, suffer from a surfeit of genetic diseases from their excessive endogamy norms. And the extreme endogamy norms seem to be inherited from the Harappans the Aryans conquered not the Aryans themselves. You don't see anything like it from the Iranian branch of the Aryans.
You also seem to be confusing eugenics with kin/group selection in your argument. Unless you think the only genes that are 'good' are your own despite how objectively inferior they might be on other metrics.
You are confusing Varna with Jati as caste. Other Indo-Europeans had a Varna like tripartite division between warriors, priests and commoners, but there wasn't the extreme level of endogamy that you find in India that has let upper caste Indians remain genetically extinct from lower caste ones. You don't see that in other Indo-European societies, but you do see it in the Dravidians.
I'm glad to mention Greece, because in Mycenean Greece there was absolutely no correlation between steppe ancestry and social status. The gryffin warrior a steppe style chariot riding warrior aristocrat with his ostentatious grave was found to have no steppe ancestry at all. Despite them clearly having close contact with the proto-Indo-Iranian peoples before they entered Greece. The Basque have a higher percent of the Indo-European r1b then there fellow Iberians. The non-Indo-European Etruscans were genetically identical to their Itallic neighbors.
Edit: I'm also a little confused about your obsession with Y-haplogroups. We have lots of studies on autosomal DNA. Eastern Iranians are more Aryan than Brahmins and a quarter of Iranian citizens are Turks.
The level of endogamy in India is more likely due to natural pressures of a small ruling class in a highly diverse, increasingly urbanized continent. There are high levels of endogamy among Afrikaners, Québécois, and ruling elite like the Habsburg family. There is ample precedent. Are you saying that the level of endogamy among the Brahmin caste is not motivated by perpetuating the ancestry of a ruling class, it's motivated coincidentally by an unrelated indigenous tradition? I don't quite understand the point you are making here.
The Dalits are the most endogamous populations in India not the Brahmins. European aristocrats don't have anything close to the levels of endogamy as seen in Indian Jatis lower and high caste. Afrikaners also have rates of endogamy far higher than Indian Jatis with Afrikaners having about 5% non-European ancestry, while Indian Jatis have endogamy rates of less than 1%.
My understanding is that Etruscans derived slightly over 50% from Bell Beaker-derived peoples who migrated there during the Bronze Age. Of course the Bell Beakers did not have pure steppe ancestry, but there is still a significant base of Steppe ancestry in Italy before Roman conquest of the peninsula. The Romans who conquered the Etruscans and became ruling class almost certainly had greater Bell Beaker admixture than the Etruscans and therefore more steppe ancestry. The Etruscans did not speak an Indo-European language so the Roman conquerors certainly had more steppe ancestry as IE speakers.
Yeah they did initially, but by the time of the Roman Republic they were identical that's my point. No one was practicing eugenics or enough endogamy to erase the genetic distinction between class and ethnic groups. Even very small amounts of exogamy will erase genetic differences in the long run. Just look at the breeder's equation!
I get the feeling you don't understand how extreme endogamy has to be to maintain genetic differences over long periods of time. Population geneticists were absolutely startled how extreme the genetic distances between Indian Jatis living in the same area were. You don't see that in Europe or other places colonized by Indo-Europeans. You don't see it anywhere except places where there have been recent migrations. It just doesn't exist.
I'm aware that Y-haplogroups highly correlate with urban centers in Iran like Tehran, and therefore social and political class, but I'm not aware of Eastern Iranians having more European steppe ancestry than Brahmins. I'll take a look later.
How can you not tell you can see it on their faces. Genetically the Eastern and Western Iranians are very different (for western Eurasian populations that share an ethnicity). I'm still not sure what your obsession with Y-haplogroups is. Why aren't we talking about autosomal DNA if we are talking about eugenics and ancestry?
There is actually pretty strong evidence that the original proto-Indo-European speakers were from Armenia/Northwest Iran and the new population that formed the late proto-Indo-European in Ukraine that became the modern Europeans was actually mostly from the y-haplogroup the EHG who lived there before, and the mitochondrial DNA is mostly from the original proto-Indo-Europeans from Armenia. Because, ancient DNA from Hittites in Anatolia had absolutely no EHG ancestry and certainly no y-haplogroups from any EHG. Of course, it's controversial to people like the starter of this thread who cares so much about y-haplogroups.
I'm an Anglo, but our culture was spread by proto-Germanic people with the haplogroup I1, a non-Indo-European haplogroup, and we are mostly not I1 now. We are mostly the Bell Beaker R1b, even in Germany and Denmark we are mostly R1b, with lots of R1a. If you look at a map of what the most common haplogroup Germanic speaking people have its a pastiche of all 3. I'm not ashamed of any of my ancestors and I think this whole thing is ridiculous.
Hyperion
11mo ago
No, why would I? My ancestors were from an amalgamation of very divergent groups in relatively recent history. My cousins are descended partly from similarly divergent groups. Unless we hope to drive the various non-white racial groups that exist in the USA to extinction, I see no reason to oppose interracial marriage. That we should support eugenics in general, then sure, but I'm not advocating for miscegenation laws, genocide, or sterilization.
Hyperion
11mo ago
After the U.S. experience during the Great Depression, and after inflation and rising interest rates in the 1970s and disinflation and falling interest rates in the 1980s, I thought the fallacy of identifying tight money with high interest rates and easy money with low interest rates was dead. Apparently, old fallacies never die. - Milton Friedman.
Hyperion
11mo ago
Again, can you explain your point with respect to my claim? Are you claiming the caste system in India has non-Indo European origins? Is it not an example of a genetic strategy as a religion as I have said? Hinduism is the expression of the unique combination of genes and environment on the continent, I wouldn't expect it to be identical to all IE civilizations. But caste endogamy is absolutely a common feature in IE civilization and that feature in Indian civilization has IE origins.
No it is not, not anywhere close to the extent of Indian society. And the non-Indo-European Dravidians have this endogamy too. I have gave you examples of Indo-European exogamy like the non-Indo-European Etruscans who were found to be identical to the Romans next to them even before they were assimilated to a Roman identity.
The Bell Beakers who both groups were half assimilated were almost 50% EEF. Far more than the Corded Ware Culture people like the Aryans who were only 20-30%. The Latins had nothing like the endogamy in India. Over 2000 years they became identical to their non-Indo-European neighbors. In 3500 years the Brahmins still have more steppe and Harappan ancestry. The Shudras in South India (who are denied, categorically, upper caste status by the Northern Indian Brahmins) have higher steppe and Harappan ancestry than the Dalits.
There is no evidence the Patrician class was more Indo-European in ancestry than the lower classes. Even the Etruscans had similar rates of R1b to the Romans. The Basque who are more EEF shifted than fellow Iberians have higher rates of R1b. The extremely steppe Swedish are modally the non-steppe I1 haplogroup.
Endogamy is a greater concern in IE civilizations with greater diversity including: South Africa, Latin America, Colonial America, the British Empire. Granted none of those are like the Hindu caste system, and those are all examples of post-Christianization European civilizations which would again support my argument for religious changes being synonymous with changes in genetic strategy (the Catholic church outlawing cousin marriage is significant here). Still, those civilizations had caste system with high levels of endogamy including in America, where the colonials resisted mixing with the natives.
The colonials resisted a little bit, but look at them now. They are not quite thoroughly mixed, but they are making great progress, and that is with large amounts of immigration from Europe and even the Middle East and Asia! It isn't panmixia, but you don't need that to remove genetic distinctions between populations. You only need a little.
Finally:
Here's a link on the Indian caste system being Harappan.
https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/tag/india-genetics/
Here's a line on Eastern Iranian genetics.
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/12/descendants-of-ancient-european-fair.html
And here, note Brahmins are less than 30% Sintashta like ancestry even in the North-West.
https://razib.substack.com/p/among-afghans-jewel-of-the-dragon
Only the Jats and Rors who are clearly descended of ancient Eastern Iranian peoples, who invaded later, have more steppe ancestry, despite being considered low-caste Shudras.
Hyperion
11mo ago
sovereign
Well someone could just not believe in a Hobbesian theory of the state or morality. If you want other theories of political and moral legitimacy there are reams available in all stripes.
Hyperion
10mo ago
Just like every Greek and Levantine state had reason to support the Roman Republic, before they all came under the rule of the Roman Empire.
Hyperion
10mo ago
If everything is a mental health disorder; then, nothing is. I find these claims absurd; but, I wouldn't call these people mentally ill. The very idea that personality disorders are real mental illnesses is nonsense to me.
Someone being a dick or a bitch doesn't make them mentally ill. They are just a dick or a bitch. Don't medicalise ordinary human personality variation. If you hate them so much just argue against them and their positions without weaponizing the bureaucracy.
Hyperion
10mo ago
Memoirs and other historical documents obtained by later researchers seem to generally support Flynn’s accusations by indicating that Roosevelt ordered his diplomats to exert enormous pressure upon both the British and Polish governments to avoid any negotiated settlement with Germany, thereby leading to the outbreak of World War II in 1939.
Wow, Germany was provoked into invading Poland; because, they were not just handed Polish land on a silver platter. What an argument. Just like Russia was provoked into invading Ukraine; because, they were not just handed eastern Ukraine on a silver platter.
Hyperion
10mo ago
No, because, I readily agree that schizophrenia or bipolar disorder are clearly mental illnesses. Caplan doesn't. It's just personality disorders that I have an issue with. Especially, because, there are no drugs that treat them and therapy is iffy at best. Depression and Anxiety disorders are a middle ground I have no comment on.
Hyperion
10mo ago
the One China policy
How can you list that with a straight face when nearly everyone thinks China is making moves to invade Taiwan within the next decade or two. Peace in our time maybe, but it only made war more likely long term by strengthening China. Treaties on nuclear armament aren't looking so hot now either with Iran using these toothless treaties as a smoke screen to continue their nuclear weapons program.
Hyperion
10mo ago
Are you forgetting about Plato and his work The Republic where he lays out a rational plan for how an ideal state should be run. Or the religious reforms of Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus, Mani, Mohmmed, et al. They tend to present themselves as bringing back old wisdom, but they clearly believe that God's designs have gone astray and it is up to humans to change them.
There is definitely an alternative to this world in Buddhism and Christianity. Nirvana through enlightenment in Buddhism; or, the Kingdom of Heaven through Christ in Christianity.
You are confusing the views of a few ancient and medieval sources with what people believed in general. Hell you sound more like you are parroting the views of the early modern philosopher Leibniz then any ancient or medieval person.
Hyperion
10mo ago
The issue isn't that there isn't a signal, the issue is that prices and wages are sticky. This is just basic Monetarist/New Keynesianism macroeconomics. Foreign exchange markets are extremely price flexible they change every second. Wages from union contracts are not. Their is a whole literature on optimal currency areas that covers this.
This is also why I think Jane Jacobs is severely overrated. She seems like someone who wants to opine on macroeconomics without even having an undergraduates understanding of the topic. If you don't even try to deal with and refute the ideas they teach in an undergraduate course how can you even say you are making a serious intellectual contribution? There are ideas like Paul Krugman's new trade theory and the agglomeration effects that deal with these things that could make your ideas work, but you don't understand them; or, even macroeconomics 101 stuff like price stickiness.
Hyperion
10mo ago
less interested in getting into political ideologies that call for sweeping social changes.
That doesn't match up with the histories of Europe and the USA either today or historically. The USA like the UK and other Anglo countries have always been less prone to sweeping social movements like Communism or Fascism then their continental cousins. You can't really compare the USA to countries like France, Germany or Russia. Just look at the amount of regime change in these countries compared to the Anglos that have remained remarkably stable.
Chinese are very low on the totem pole in the west though. They are openly discriminated against in academia, both through admissions and personally. Razib Khan on his blog has talked about how hyper woke academics will say horrible things about Asians in private.
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