Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
No bio...
User ID: 314
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
slippery slope of "disappear without due process illegal immigrants/terrorists
The guy wasn't "disappeared", he had multiple days in court, this whole thing is about accidnetally missing a page of paperwork that would have had no material impact on the sequence of events.
By comparison, we crossed the "murder American children by drones with no due process" threshold over a decade ago.
Relatedly, you would find much more consistency if you were checking for people being incensed about debanking.
Yeah, that would have been a decent example for anyone in this thread to bring up as an example of the non-partisan civil libertarian bonefides.
Instead of what they've actually provided.
Which is literally nothing.
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
I've been arguing about politics online for seven presidential administrations. If called to task for being a partisan, I can reference my old flame wars about the war in Iraq and W-era abortion laws as evidence that I am at least historically willing to be angry at Republicans. Can you really not think of a single time you made a post or comment or argument or shower tirade in which you were upset at progressives for some violation of procedure?
Cause that seems kinda telling.
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
A better analogy: You are committing tax fraud. The IRS catches you. They apply a totally legal and 100% justified garnishment of your wages, and then afterwards discover that they missed a piece of paperwork they were supposed to sign making sure you didn't have prior mandated child support obligation.... which you don't have.
I simply don't believe you are holding this position in good faith. If the sacred processes are so important to you, then go up thread at rip the NY governor a new asshole.
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
He is the one arguing for ‘the ends don’t justify the means’ non-consequentialism whereas you seem to be arguing that dropping the murder rate by 99% justifies an awful lot.
I understood his argument as being upset about anything beyond the absolute bare minimum quantity of harm being done in the prevention of a greater evil, via the trite rationalist framework of "bad things are bad, and I'm free to criticize everyone else for being less perfect than my pacifistic ivory tower ideals". Maybe he's not the kind of person who doesn't want to punish criminals because of a shallow "people experiencing bad things is bad!" moral understanding... but that's certainly the impression I was getting, especially with him citing Thing of Things like it's a fucking Gospel.
And you know what? We can have that conversation. But you have to be able to justify the claims of unnecessary cruelty, and have to make at least some effort to weigh the pros and cons, and to account for cultural differences, too. And unfortunately, bro seems to be incapable of even attempting a serious effort at that. It comes off like an Eloi asking why the El Salvadoran's just don't notlet bad things happen. It's the "let them eat cake" of criminal theory.
you seem to be arguing that dropping the murder rate by 99% justifies an awful lot.
Yes. And I can support that stance under any moral framework you like, from consequentialism to virtue ethics. But the secondary part is that there doesn't actually seem to be an "awful lot" to justify. People in this thread keep going off about EL SALVADORAN TORTURE PRISON, but none of the people I've asked have offered any evidence that's it's even particularly bad as far as prisons go. Hell, they haven't offered any evidence at all. And my own brief searching seems to suggest that the prison in question is less brutal than a normal American prison, because the prisoners are kept so locked down that they can't brutalize each other. There was a multi-day meltdown over the presumption that Garcia was being tortured and probably murdered... and he just met with a Senator and seemed pretty comfortable and fine, and didn't seem to have complaints of that nature.
So... maybe some people should grow up and at least try to justify any of the horseshit they're peddling. Alternatively, I'm free to point out that they sound like spoiled children.
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
OK. So, I'm going infer from this response that you've never personally experienced a threat in your life, and your entire understanding of evil/harm comes from reading other extravagantly comfortable, myopic nerds playing sterile word games. On top of that, you have the classic complete absence of second order thinking, and refuse to even notionally entertain utilitarian calculations with more than one variable. Non-utilitarian considerations are quantum physics in Klingon.
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
You mean removing people to a country for which they had a legally binding order withholding removal.
That's not a "step in the paperwork" kind of mistake.
Yeah, it is. There's a process for removing that order based on obviously changed relevant facts. AIUI, it doesn't even require a judge. The basis for his withholding order was no longer valid. Ergo, it's a step in the paperwork.
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
You never answered that question the other day about exactly how incredibly privileged and sheltered you are. Why do you believe that you have shared values with the murder-cult warlords who were terrorizing a nation less than a handful of years ago? Why do you think that you know better the exact line that can be drawn on exactly how rough one must be to repress the murder-cult, compared to the politician who actually accomplished that? Have you ever successfully spearheaded any kind of harm reduction effort comparable to reducing a nation's murder rate by 99%?
And once again, please explain what the purportedly inhumane conditions are. When I looked, CNN said it was "spartan rooms" and the machismo-fueled murder-cult prisoners were made to kneel while their heads were shaved, which probably didn't make them feel very good.
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
Will you concede that it's unacceptable to be 1/5k?
Nope. I don't find the actual error in question to be particularly meaningful. This dressing down to ignorant children who didn't do their homework sums up the state of discourse fairly well.
If you're going to say 1/5k is unacceptable, then I hope to see you advocating for burning down the entire government. The error rate for Medicaid payments seems to be something like 1 in 20. The Child Care & Development fund is bouncing between 9 and 13%. Apparently our own government can't even retire employees in a reasonably timely manner because almost 30% of the applications have errors
The IRS makes mistakes when taxing people less than 1% of the time... which is still 50 times worse than your "unacceptable" rate for "deporting people who were definitely supposed to be deported, but missing a step in the paperwork".
There's too many cites to bother linking them all, but I'm seeing false conviction rates ranging from 1-12%... including a purported 4% rate of executing innocent people that is in a paywalled National Geographic article I can only see a preview of.
Want to talk about drone strike error rates?
So, no. I'm not going to concede that a functionally irrelevant-to-outcome paperwork snafu happening in 1 in 5000 deportations is "unacceptable" in any meaningful way. That's actually wildly better than anything else I expect from our government and everyone who cares so, so, so deeply about processes apparently ought to be worshipping Tom Hooman and begging to put him in charge of other parts of the government, too.
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
accuse me of hypocrisy here
I'm heavily hinting at it, while offering you every reasonable opportunity to demonstrate that the accusation is inapplicable.
Needless to say, I shant be holding my breath, and absence of evidence is very much Bayesian evidence of absence.
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
Can you name another time when you've been incensed over a 1-in-100,000 procedural error rate?
Can you name a government process or department with a lower error rate?
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
because I find it quite doubtful that the median length of time that people have been living here illegally is 4 years or less
Why? Is there literally anything you're hanging this on aside from raw hope and vibes?
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
Credibility doesn't come from nothing. The modern internet is absolutely filled with false flag shit. It's assuredly automated, even. "I'm a Trump voter, but I'm so mad at him about Current Thing that I wish I'd voted for Kamala, darn tootin" is practically an entire genre of reddit post. And this week's thread has multiple brand new accounts claiming that they've definitely been long-term principled civil libertarians.
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
You can propose all sorts of scary scenarios you want where the president is required to wage nuclear war based on a court order for something seemingly trivial, but I'm not moved by them for the simple reason that such a system is vastly less scary than the one we're currently presumably operating under.
Ok, now imagine how the current situation looks to your outgroup, and remember that they're mostly real humans who are allowed to think the same sort of thing that you just did, right here.
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
Human smuggling seems to be the better terminology. I'll use that one to describe this instead.
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
Sorry, this is about the principle. Do you think the courts can generally demand the executive make specific foreign policy actions, requiring specific ends in direct contradiction to the logic in the legal decision upthread? Can you elaborate exactly what the limits of this judicial power are? Remember, we're all being DEEPLY CONCERNED about slippery slope precedents - can you show us exactly where the judges have explicitly claimed that they CANNOT order the executive to overthrow foreign governments? I mean, if they can order Trump to do this here, then there is NO LIMIT on them ordering him to do literally anything, no matter how insane and evil!
Right? That's how the arguments elsewhere in this thread have gone.
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
Great. I'm sure you have a large backlog of posts making this same point at progressives, right? Are you familiar with the concept of an "isolated demand for rigor"?
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
Speaking as likely the only person in this forum who has ever dug ditches alongside illegal immigrants, I would expect it to be much, much lower. If you've been here for 11 years and the best you've got is waiting outside Home Depot, you probably utterly suck.
And that's beside the point. The number of people who are estimated to have come in during the last 4 years is comparable to the total prior illegal population.
Do you think all of the previous ones dipped during the Biden administration?
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
Have you ever tried to have a conversation with someone who has little-to-no English language skills about something? It's entirely possible the dude repeated a combination of sounds back at the officer without really understanding what he was saying. Or that he was knowingly admitting to skipping border checkpoints.
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
Ah. My sympathies. I've been there. If anything, I think you're understating the magnitude of the problem.
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
I'd buy it. But I'd also push-back that it was a one-way street and that conservatives had no agency in the matter. It's almost as if it would be convenient that academic institutions were one day able to be simply "deleted" for wrong-think.
The situation seems to model as a cooperate/defect situation. Leftists were able to gain a foothold precisely because enough of the old guard were swayed by arguments about academic freedom and the free exchange of ideas. And enough of those leftists do not return that consideration that they were able to slowly grind out their outgroup.
We've seen the same dynamic play out in a thousand venues, from forums to corporations.
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
It was the first result when I searched. The incident is being reported elsewhere as well. If it's verified, are you going to adjust in favor of the Daily Caller being more reliable, and many other media sources engaging in deception by omission?
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
Transporting 8 illegal aliens from Texas to Maryland in a way that seems suggestive of organization and planning. I think coyotes hiding people in the frames of vehicles to sneak them across the border is a reasonable use case of the term. Carpooling to the Home Depot parking lot, OTOH, is very much not. This case seems somewhere in the middle, probably a bit closer to the former.
Is there a better term you'd suggest instead?
Iconochasm
All post-temple whore technology is gay.
8mo ago
Maybe I am inclined to believe that those who seek truth for the sake of truth do tend to come out with a "liberal" bias.
Stick around, new kid. Time in this community will thoroughly disabuse you of that notion, presuming you can avoid the traditional leftwinger meltdown and flounce-out when you realize that other people are going to continue to be allowed to argue back.
I am curious, though, is your theory that the Long March Through Institutions was a concerted effort, with agents who collaborated and took specific actions? Or one that happened more "naturally" due to the perverse incentives of a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_education](liberal education)?
Prospiracy with significant conspiracy elements. Something like a third of professors openly admit they would refuse to approve of the hiring of a conservative, no matter how qualified. Iterate that attitude for the better part of a century and here we are.
The thing it's revealing is a familiarity with the concept of "isolated demand for rigor". For example, if this were a truly good faith position, I might expect ameliorating statements along the lines of "Missing one administrative step in 100,000 cases is actually very impressive. Even with this screw-up, this is vastly better than expected for ANY government action."
I very much agree, as a personal idiosyncrasy. In most cases, I just mentally replace all liberal->progressive whenever it's used by someone who isn't e.g. Glenn Greenwald.
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