Karmaze
1yr ago
Yeah, this is much more a problem with crypto than it is anything involving EA or Rationalism.
I'll say it again, as it stands right now, it's a Ponzi scheme, more or less, hoping that eventually something will be mainstreamed into broad, basically universal usage. I'm not saying that as a moral criticism, FWIW, I'm sure the people who engage in it believe that some day it'll actually get there. But until that day, it really is just a house of cards waiting to collapse.
Karmaze
1yr ago
Furthermore why do we care so much about the psychological impacts of prostitution when we don't care about how the feelings of garbage men or plumbers are affected by their jobs?
It's much less garbage men or plumbers, (the people I know who do these things seem to be satisfied with the job itself) and much more telemarketers, retail/service employees and so on.
I don't think sex work is for everybody. And for reasons, I wouldn't make it into expected work, as in, expecting people on welfare to do it. But at the same time, I can see how it would be some people's cup of tea.
Truth be told, I think the trad-sex elements of some forms of conservatism to be well..missing the point I think. It's not that I think they're misidentifying the problem...increasing amounts of men seem to be incapable of fulfilling roles that are broadly seen as desired (even if people like to pretend that's not the case), but the problem isn't really in the sexual sphere. Because of that the solutions are all wrong. Porn/Prostitution in this way are fillers for people who have internalized ideas that either the male gender role is bad, or lack the skills to perform the male gender role.
Karmaze
1mo ago
Yeah, I think this is right, or at least it's my point. I actually think people hold on to dear life to the Oppressor/Oppressed frame so we don't break this image, lest we start questioning the connections and the generational wealth. The one thing I believe strongly, is we don't have the stomach for actual socioeconomic decline. Even the most Progressive of the Progressives will balk at this when it comes to they and theirs. It's OK when it's just "Billionaires", but when it comes down to specifics that are in the in-group? Nah. Not an option.
The big threat that comes from heterodox thinking on this, I think, is that we add connections to the DEI anti-list, I.E. things that will be counted in a negative sense. In that, it's not the unconnected white men that will lose out...it's the connected ones. You best be coming with your DEI proposal, a plan for your eventual exit. I think there's a reason why people go nuclear on heterodox thinking on these matters, things outside the Progressive vs. Reactionary binary, that all this stuff presents itself as a very real threat to not just the powers in a big sense, but your place and power in a more local sense.
Karmaze
1mo ago
There's a lot of people who put FF14 as the #1 story in gaming. Including myself. Yeah, the way the story is told is kinda weird because of the MMO format, but the story beats themselves, I believe, are top-notch, or at least for me they resonate super hard.
Karmaze
10mo ago
Yes, absolutely. On the more serious side, this brings to mind Scott Aaronson's comment quoted in Untitled, on the less serious side of this David Mitchell bit.
Yup. Like I said, I really do think, especially in the Aaronson case, we're talking about very much maladaptive socialization.
Unfortunately I believe you're right. To the extent the trade off is even acknowledged (and it is generally treated as though it does not exist), it is acknowledged as being worthwhile.
My experience is always being blamed for taking this shit too seriously. Just to make it clear. The response is something more like you're just messed up, go get therapy. (Even though there's a good chance the therapy is going to reinforce these ideas)
I think the problem is a desire to maintain Kayfabe, the idea is one side is good, and the other side is bad. I do think this is almost a necessary function of a power-based political movement, be it left right or center. You simply can't acknowledge costs and trade-offs, or find ways to mitigate them. So what happens is that the costs are simply excised as much as possible to whatever out-group you have.
Karmaze
10mo ago
I actually do think it manifests in a lot of ways, especially in a gender fashion, although it also pops up from time to time in regards to race. For example, encouraging men to not speak up and to let women speak, because historically women don't get a chance to speak. Or the whole diAngelo approach to race relations.
What makes this hard, is that I don't think that most people actually internalize/actualize these ideas in this way of course...especially advocates for these ideas. They really don't self-deconstruct, and this is why this isn't a recognized danger. However, I do think there are some people who are vulnerable to these messages. And I do believe this is one of the big reasons why we see links between autism and a desire to transition...they're people who are more likely to internalize these messages and self-deconstruct. And again, there's no shade being thrown here on this. I'm one of those people.
My take on a lot of the culture wars, especially when it comes to kids, is that Progressive ideas need "guardrails" to prevent vulnerable internalizers from taking these messages too seriously and personally. As well, they need help after the fact in being "deprogrammed" from these messages. The problem is again that this isn't a recognized problem, so there's very little ability to get effective help out there.
Personally, to be blunt, I don't think there's much interest in actually putting up said guardrails. Which is why I think kids shouldn't be exposed to this stuff. But I'd be OK with these ideas put forward alongside alternatives if those guardrails were there. (The truth is, the alternatives themselves might be effective guardrails on their own).
As a side note, to maybe throw some fuel on this fire, much of this I believe goes for the whole Incel thing as well. People argue about how to fix that problem, and a lot of it is deprogramming the anti-male/anti-masculine rhetoric that's been common for a few decades now.
Karmaze
1yr ago
As with other groups, this starts to read as a special pleading. "The mere fact that you're criticizing [group] at all indicates you must hate them."
To be clear, I lean more on the open side in terms of Trans Rights/identity. I think it makes sense that some people are born with gender dysphoria, and I do think transition probably is a good treatment when this happens. (That said, I do think there's a socialized version that should be treated entirely different).
But the question really has to be asked. Is this special pleading...and let's be clear, it absolutely is special pleading...enough to oppose a group? It sucks that it is this way. I'm not a fan of this. But ultimately, I do believe it's entirely rational to oppose a group/identity who is claiming this power with some semblance of success. I'm not saying it's the best way to go about things. (Nor am I saying it's the worst, to be clear, although my personality/aesthetic leans towards a more pluralistic, open approach).
But at the end of the day, I do think this type of politics drives a large amount of the identity culture warring we see today.
Karmaze
1yr ago
As someone who does think that the "New Atheism" community played a pretty outsized role in shaping what basically makes up modern progressive culture, I would almost certainly say that the Atheism part of it is largely irrelevant. It's more of a coincidence than anything else, it could have happened in pretty much any other online community (I do think social media plays a role in this) that leaned left.
Karmaze
1yr ago
The problem is that there's very little to no interest in actually getting rid of the male gender role. It's too useful, both on an individual and on a societal level. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's arbitrary....I think there's a historical development based around material needs....but certainly it's something that COULD be changed if we had the gumption. We just don't.
I don't say that as a macho type man either, truth be told, I had to work pretty hard to get at least somewhat decent both at actually performing the male gender role, and frankly, believing that it's in any way ethical to do so. I'd personally be better off if we jettisoned it. But I think asking men to basically ignore the incentive structures that exist in society is a big part of a lot of the social problems we're seeing today.
Karmaze
1yr ago
One aspect I haven't seen discussed is that this is the same guy who was behind the controversial decision to buy Wytham Abbey for 15 million pounds (see here). In light of current events, it sure looks to me like EA officials decided to blow millions on a luxury venue in Oxford in order to impress women.
To make it clear, I'm referring to this part in particular.
Karmaze
1yr ago
I don't know of another way to put it. Maybe there's nothing ironic about it, but I do think that the ShitRedditSays culture that IMO A+ fundamentally is based on is stupid levels of cruel. I know, even back when I was on the other side of things, and people were raving about how cool that culture was, I took one look at it and just noped away. It's something I want no part of.
Karmaze
1yr ago
There is an ocean of difference between a logical assessment of morality and the effectively-felt transformation of an individual into a moral actor who follows the moral commandments
My argument would be that there's nothing that can actively trigger that transformation and we shouldn't pretend that there is. Sure, I do think individuals can have experiences that can...but I don't think that's limited to any actual belief system...or that you need a belief system...or that any belief system has any substantial advantage over any other. But a lot of the time, these ideas are going to be strictly externalized. They'll be enforced on the other, but not internalized and actualized. And maybe that's good for a society? (Although it's not something I'm in agreement with), but I don't think we should that consider that effective in the way you're talking about here.
Edit: Important to note, please understand that I'm usually making this argument in the opposite direction, why I don't believe modern Progressive ideas do much to actually affect individual behavior of those that hold those ideas, but I think this goes for other religious beliefs as well.
Karmaze
1yr ago
Oh certainly, and I'm not saying that this message is wildly sent out, but my experiences with being told this make me comfortable with pointing this out without it being intended as boo-outgroup, as I think it's a fairly accurate statement.
My personal belief is that there's just people (including myself) who are more innately wired to internalize these ideas, and this stuff is going to be a potential danger to us. When it comes to teaching this stuff in schools, at the minimum I want "guardrails" put in place to protect vulnerable people in this regard. The other side of this, is that I don't see the actual benefit. I mean...I can understand the meaning of just "Vote Left"...but that feels very hollow. Truth is, even as someone who understands how unhealthy it is, if I thought that there was a hope of internalization being more common, I at least could see the point.
The overarching thing, is that I think the idea of socioeconomic decline, or even stagnation is too horrific to too many people for this to be even a possibility. So any sort of internalizing of the idea of "You don't deserve this, time to give it up", which I think is the message being presented to people on the outside, I think is simply a no-go area.
Karmaze
1yr ago
My main problem with Wokeism is that it really struggles to answer whether it actually delivers what it promises to. A Buddhist monk, a nun, and an EA (as far as I know) have a good sense of what they're getting into and what they'll get from it. In contrast, the effectiveness of woke policies on actually improving the wellbeing of the disadvantaged (what its adherents actually want) runs the entire gauntlet from effective to counter productive, while cultivating a culture that has no qualms about deliberately misrepresenting the empirics.
This is the big difference between the two, in my mind. More specifically, I think Wokism (Neo-Progressivism) is a culture-focused, externalizing memeset, where EA is a highly materialist, internalizing memeset. (And I think I'm being accurate in the former...as someone who has internalized NP ideas in the past, I've been told a lot that you're not actually supposed to do that. You're not supposed to actually self-deconstruct).
If you want to get into religion, I think there are versions of religion that run that particular gamut. There are culture-focused externalizing types and materialist focused internalizing types.
I am partisan in that I think the latter, materialist route is the only thing sustainable, but I can steelman the culturalist approach, in that it's focused on politics and structures and how to change them. I just don't think it'll be successful, because human nature will twist it for personal gain.
Karmaze
1mo ago
In reality, I think the touchpoint really comes down to 3 games, all of which did quite poorly, objectively. Saint's Row, Forsaken and Suicide Squad. I think 2 had technical issues (I thought the demo for Forsaken was decent), but I think all three, story wise, had issues in that they just came across as bad, tone-wise. I think that certain cultural tone simply doesn't have the wide appeal that the bigwigs think it has. Now, I think Suicide Squad the issues were more with the gameplay than the story, (people didn't want a shoot the purple glowing button live service game) but still. I do think it's a problem.
My own personal viewpoint is that it's larger than one consulting firm. And considering that Alan Wake 2, IMO was actually pretty good, and SBI DID consult on that, I do think the problem is somewhere else. Myself? I've given up on North American AAA. And yeah, Forsaken was Japanese developed, but they WANTED to be a North American game in so many ways.
I do think there's something wrong in the NA AAA space, and I do think the explosion of Progressive politics plays a role, but it's not a direct one, other than the moral license issues. I think it's just a narrow culture, much more narrow than it thinks it is, and that's the problem. Outside of NA, and I disagree, GTA 6 I think will probably be fine if it's still rooted in the nascent anti-Americanism, I think around the rest of the world, even Left/Progressive coded games are fine.
Karmaze
1mo ago
A few days ago, a steam curator was created listing all the games that have SBI's involvement as "not recommended". The situation is played out predictably: some employees claimed harassment, the steam group got Streisand Effect'd and grew to 200k over the last two days, it has been mass reported, people are trolling in the fora claiming to have insider info, the forum got wiped...
So, the problem is you're missing the inciting incident here, which is understandable because all the articles on the subject completely missed it. Things blew up when an employee for SBI tried to start a campaign to mass-report the curator group and the curator himself to get him banned from Steam. That all the articles on the subject skip that IS why it's a big deal. It really is the "Gamers are Dead" articles all over again.
My own thoughts on SBI more broadly? I think it's a really bad sign when a company is advertising itself as being behind a few of the big stinkers of the last year or two. (Suicide Squad, Forsaken, Saint's Row). There's a lot of games also on their list that people thought took a step down or two. But...honestly I think not really because of SBI.
I think North American AAA is in really bad shape right now. I actually do think it's linked to Progressive culture, in that the ego and hubris, and frankly, the narcissism doesn't just go away when you sit down to do your job. I think the Modern Online Progressivism that's in vogue right now is essentially a Moral License factory...it has to be given how toxic some of their ideas are to actualize.
The thing is, I don't think it's Western. I think Alan Wake 2, even though it underperformed, AND showed up on the SBI list was pretty good (although it probably could have been better), I think Baldur's Gate 3 is one of the best games out there. And while Cyberpunk 2077 was buggy and lacked features...I think there was a lot of good in that game (and post 2.0 update I think it's superb)
So yeah. Just don't bother with North American AAA. It's boring and vapid.
But the controversy is the same. The media people want us to believe that Progressives are all pure and wonderful and rainbows and sunshine when our eyes tell us other things.
Karmaze
10mo ago
- Labor policies designed around maintaining a healthy work/life balance and encouraging participation in society. The whole "on-call 24/7" thing for low-wage workers simply isn't sustainable.
Karmaze
1yr ago
The claim is that wokeism was only able to rise so quickly and so broadly was due to the effects of atheism on the masses, not that they had the same origins/goals/motivations.
Yeah that's wrong. At least in my mind.
I think it rose quickly and broadly because it provides a high-dose method of being on the "right side of history" while minimizing actual cost for yourself and the people around you.
Karmaze
1yr ago
Honestly, I think it's a bit more complicated than that. I actually think it's a power fight over who has to check their privilege and who doesn't. Who is going to be deconstructed and who is going to be spared that inspection. As people say in this community, it's the "Who, Whom" problem, Who sets the rules and on whom are they going to be enforced. Truth be told, I don't think any of the individual issues actually matter all that much in terms of the culture wars.
I'll be blunt, actually "checking your privilege" is basically riddled with anxiety, if you're actually doing it. I'm speaking as someone with personal experience in this. It's about always second and third-guessing everything you actually do. It's not healthy in any way shape or form. The goal is to get the outgroup to do it, but not the in-group, so the in-group has decided advantages in society.
Karmaze
1yr ago
My personal controversial belief about this is that people are often against porn for this very reason. They want actual sex to be like this, where you focus solely on your own pleasure. Porn "raises the bar" in a way that makes them uncomfortable about their own performance.
Karmaze
1yr ago
I mean, even look at something like child sex trafficking that so often flies off into other things. (And also misses very critical vectors at times). But this isn't to say completely discredit their work and what they're doing...although I share the same instinctual flinch. My guard is certainly up as well. But it's not something we should shift on a larger group, is my point. Their arguments should stand and fail on their own, without being reflective of people outside of those making those arguments. Maybe that's pollyannaish, as usual. But I do think it's a very real problem.
Maybe a better way of putting it is that the power that advocacy groups wield can be dangerous in their own right, and while it shouldn't discredit their argument, certainly it's a reason that we should be careful and wary about it.
Karmaze
1yr ago
I would argue that pretty much all the activists involved are hoisted by their own petard. That this is something that simply can't be actually resolved through Progressive structures based on Critical concepts of power, and that at every single level, these models of power/culture/identity are the cause of the conflict.
Karmaze
1yr ago
Certainly I agree with you.
My point is that I really do think it was the Atheism+ strand of the whole thing that "caught fire" and was broadly picked up. I don't think it was picked up directly from LJ, Tumblr or SRS so much, although certainly, and I specifically think it was SRS that was embraced by the A+ crowd...
Actually let me rephrase that. I think the FTB side of the whole A+ thing was heavily influenced by SRS, and the whole ironic cruelty thing. But there was also the A+ forums, (and the two didn't really get along) that was much more Tumblr influenced I think. (Honestly, the whole LiveJournal as radical thing missed me, so I can't really tell you much, the only things I ever read on there were Scott's journal pre-SSC and various Tales from Tech Support type stuff)
Anyway, I do think that largely it's that "ironic cruelty" that set the stage for what we see as woke culture today.
Karmaze
1yr ago
For what it's worth, what's driving this thing right now is that the corporate view is that MTG has essentially peaked, and they need a new growth vector, and that's in D&D. This is public information, to be clear. There's no speculation, this is what they've said.
The speculation is that it's bad as they need to essentially quintuple their revenue on the quick or the department is going to be mothballed.
Yup. You got it.
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