MayorofOysterville
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User ID: 3800
MayorofOysterville
3d ago
How top down the holocaust was is actually huge debate in Holocaust studies. Saying your a functionalist ie the Holocaust happened organically through on the ground radicalism and local functionaries working towards the Fuhrer is a totally mainstream opinion in academia.
Can you say why you think the numbers are substantially inflated? We have a pretty good idea of the Jewish numbers throughout Eastern Europe from pre and post war census records and the Jewish community largely just vanishes. You can say those records were doctored but then that gets into the problem of those communities still not existing today.
MayorofOysterville
4d ago
I think you make some very reasonable objections based on the way the holocaust is often taught and framed in Western countries. And indeed many people one /r/askhistorians coming from not a skeptical position at all but still nor understanding why the Germans took certain actions. Because the way the Holocaust is taught in high school as a singular event and not how it fit into the broader German war effort and also because I think most high school teachers and principles would be uncomfortable articulating Nazi arguments in a Steelman way. This leads to some holes in the framework and I think you'd be surprised how close you are to the academic and not the pop culture version of the holocaust.
The death camps we all know were part of a much larger machinery of forced labor ranging from keeping farmers on their fields in Soviet collectivized agriculture (the Ukrainian peasants who though the Germans were going to re-introduce private property were bitterly disappointed) to conscripted foreign laborers in factories, to forced labor in work camps, to finally the death camps. The economy of the third reich, especially in the war's later periods ran on tens of millions of slave laborers the majority of which were not Jews. Now if the Germans were simply using the Jews as a slave labor and ill treating them to death we would expect to see a demographic hole in Jewish communities, remember in pre-war Poland 10% of the population was Jewish and in the Western Soviet Union many towns were majority or plurality Jewish not mention many villages that were essentially 100% Jewish. If the Germans were just taking slaves we would expect to see the able bodied gone and the very old and very young remaining but this is not what we see instead we see essentially all of Eastern European Jewry just vanish the very old and the very young included. Sometimes people will say they just went to Israel at all but the numbers just do not add up at all even if you only use Poland and there is no reason to do that, say what you will about the Soviets but they were pretty autistic about demographics.
The idea the holocaust cost lots of resources is something of a myth about the holocaust it didn't take huge resources to do it was done reasonably efficiently and on the cheap and likely turned a profit. The actual number of German camp guards was fairly low as the actual function was mainly ran by capos and it just doesn't take that many people with guns to control large number of people especially when you are just going to kill them and bring in the next batch. You say killing a slave labor force when they were in the middle of a war doesn't make sense but they largely didn't do that. They largely killed the ones who couldn't work and then put the rest to work in conditions varying from being worked to death on starvation rations, to treated semi-ok as long as they were doing productive labor. The reason Oscar Schindler was able to save the Jews he did because they were doing productive labor for the war effort. If they stopped being productive well... We also have other examples of states doing similar things see the Ottoman Empire killing the Armenians while losing a war instead of even attempting to use them for labor. I feel like you are overly focused on the Jews being a useful slave labor force when from the German perspective they were an especially dangerous slave labor force subversive and radioactive. The Germans perceived, at least by the later stages, WWII as a war against Jews as they blamed Jews for both Anglo Capitalism and especially Bolshevik Communism. They viewed the Jews under their control as racial enemies and the entirety of the war as a race war but especially on the Eastern front.
We can see the Germans take special efforts to get their hands on Jews specifically such as in Hungary after the coup when the Germans had more influence over the government they used it to deport the entire Jewish population. If they needed these slave labor positions filled why weren't they already using Poles or Russians and why take the very old and very young and virtually the entire Jewish population of Hungary? In the standard narrative this does include lots of able bodied men being killed because of the sudden influx.
Another case where the Germans did kill able bodied men were the Einsatzgruppen and if you respond to anything in my post. respond to this I'm curious about what you think about them because they are often left out of alternative holocaust narratives and arguments and you didn't mention them either. A typical denier argument or even question by a curios redditor on Askhistorians (I know you don't identify that way and didn't make this argument) Is why didn't the Germans just shoot everyone? and the answer is they tried! But it turns out shooting tons of people is hard and plays hell on the psych of people doing it. Not to mention using bullets this way strains the war effort a lot more than working people to death. the Einsatzgruppen are also incredibly problematic for both the Western and Soviet narratives as they often were heavily involved with local collaborators which even today is something of a problem of the West in terms of Ukraine and the Baltics, which makes them incredibly likely for the West to falsify.
I'm not sure I agree about the witness testimony and historians don't actually give continence to stories like that it's not a hidden thing in holocaust studies and any event involving millions of people is going to have a lot of people making crazy shit up. But we do have evidence outside or witness testimony we have reams and reams of paperwork we have stuff like the Wannsee Conference and General Plan Ost. We have train manifests and none of the people put on trial for it actually denied it. You can say they were tortured but we don't actually have any evidence of that and the Nuremburg trials seem like the fairest version of victors justice I've ever seen given that some of them were acquitted. As for your idea the numbers can only go up in the narrative This is not the case the numbers of those killed at Auschwitz have been revised down several times by historians. If the evidence is there holocaust scholars will lower them. In fact deniers use the lowering of numbers killed out Auschwitz as something of a gotcha.
I know this is a long post and I don't expect a response to all of it or really want to get in a tit for tat. but if you respond to anything. I'd ask you opinion on the Einsatzgruppen, the lack of a demographic hole of missing able bodied Jews and what you think of the existing documentation we do have. I'm curious if any of this changed your mind and if not why not?
MayorofOysterville
11d ago
They are definitely leftist. But they are not that radical and not even close to abolishing capitalism and to be clear I think a few of these are horrible policy. Namely rent control and free buses but I don't consider these policies communist/socialist. They are common and not terribly radical bad urban policy.
MayorofOysterville
11d ago
Socialist is also a bit of a reclaimed term. Republicans in the Bush era constantly argued against policies like universal healthcare by proclaiming them socialism as an argument ender. That resulted in people who wanted that and other policies claiming the label.
Haha it's not to much I'm impressed with your research.
Sounds like you've got a pretty good idea of the sites in Chongqing only places I would add are Ciqikou (磁器口) a tourist street in Chongqing. Touristy but for Chinese tourist and if you've never been to China before it's definitely worth it to take on the spectacle and Liziba station which is a station inside an apartment block it's very cool and cyberpunk. For Dazu i'd do a day trip but it really depends on what you want you could definitely make a day of it. In my opinion Chongqing is better for vibes than for sites to see, so be sure to leave some time for urban exploring. That's where Chongqing really shines in my opinion the nuts geography and cool alleys and architecture are it's high points I could also give you a tour of my university and/or arrange a dinner with some Chinese university students. No pressure and I know some people would find this dreadfully dull but others might be really interested. I'd have to vet you a little first to make sure you aren't an axe murderer or a missionary or something but if your interested DM me.
You hit on two great places in Guizhou Zhaoxing Dong village and Fanjingshan are both great places and if you can work one of them in I highly recommend either. Let start with Zhaoxing, So Zhaoxing is easy to get to because it's on the highspeed train line. The station is Congjiang (从江）which is right next to it. it's a four hour train ride from Chongqing. Zhaoxing itself is an overbuilt tourist trap, however the villages around it aren't so you can stay in Zhaoxing there are a half a dozen much less touristic villages around the valley that you can hike to in an hour or two or hire a car to go up and see them they are a little rebuilt and they do make some money off of tourists but they lack the Disneyland feel . Alternatively Congjiang town itself is an interesting little town with essentially zero tourism and a lot of traditional Dong architecture. Congjiang has one main street with modern concrete buildings but other than that it's all traditional wooden Dong buildings and several Drum towers. It's completely off the tourist trail and a pretty cool hidden gem. I definitely think staying the night is worth it if you can arrive in the morning and leave in the evening.
Fanjingshan is one of the coolest places I've ever been. A lot of pilgrimage places and cool stuff doesn't live up to the hype Fanjingshan does it looks unreal like something out of a Fantasy novel it's super cool. The downside is it's a little tricky to get to. The ways to get there are a 8/9 hour bus ride from Chongqing or taking the high speed rail to Zunyi (two hours) and then hire a care 2/3 hours or take the bus 3/4 hours to where you are going. You could also go via Tongren but probably wouldn't have a reason to. The town adjacent to Fanjingshan sucks it's all hotels and tourist restaurants like one big base camp. However there is a town nearish Fanjingshan Sinan (思南县)that I personally like and I feel ins interesting but it is just a town and way off the tourist trail. It's pressed between the river and the mountains so it has a very narrow interesting architecture and a cool vibe with the river on one side and the mountains on the other. It also has an old section with some wooden buildings an ancestor hall and a hill with a little pagoda you can hike to. I don't want to oversell it to much it's just a random town but it's a fun little town to explore in a day and give you a sense of rural Chinese life. I wouldn't go just for this but it will give you something to do in the afternoon after Fanjingshan. Zunyi is also good for a day or two of red tourism . Not sure if you are interested in that.
As for Kaifeng yeah if I was doing your trip I wouldn't spend a week there. But When I went I kept extending my trip because I loved it so much but part of that was just vibes and noodling around on a ebike so I wasn't getting to sites in any efficient manner you got most of the big ones the Iron pagoda is probably the most must see. Theres also a Maoist village commune nearish Kaifeng thats doable on a long day trip, interesting because they use the old communist system and have no private commerce and also a giant portrait of Stalin. Even Kaifeng is pushing it a bit weather wise and that's the issue with traveling in China in the winter generally Shanghai and south of it is ok. North of that it just gets snowy and miserable. Yes you can bundle up but Chinese cities kind of suck in the snow and you miss out on all the cool streetlife which makes China so fun. Shanxi is awesome but it's going to suck in the winter and there's a whole half of the country not covered in snow. If you have an hour or two of downtime in Shanxi your going to sit in the warm hotel or wander empty streets but in the southern half you can find all sorts of cool stuff going on outdoors. That's why I said maybe add Xian, Xian maybe to cold or not but you can go see famouse places there and do outside stuff else where and Xian maybe fine idk I don't have a good sense of their winter weather.
Chongqing - Chengdu - Leshan - Langzhong - Guangyuan - Xi'an; This is the one I like the best because you start with a little variety. Hitting Chongqing, Xian and Sichuan. But you have four cities in Sichuan here you should definitely take one or two off and add some variety like one of the Guizhou places above and maybe or maybe not Kaifeng.
Beijing - Datong - Pingyao - Linfen - Xi'an; A great itinerary but not for winter
Xi'an - Tianshui - Zhangye - Jiayuguan - Dunhuang (so basically travelling the length of the Hexi Corridor); Probably the most interesting of your itineraries, I love the China silk road stuff and farwests China but if you were going to do it i'd definitely take off one of the a Gansu cities and add a Uighur city like Turpan and maybe sub in Linxia for another. Definitely save this for if you ever come back in the summer.
Suzhou - Tongli - Hangzhou - Hongcun - Wuyuan (as a jumping off base for Sanqingshan); Not a bad trip good weather wise good mix of history and nature a little limited to the Shanghai area you might sub one of these for Xian. Suzhou is amazing.
Xiamen - Quanzhou - Tulou - Chaozhou - Kaiping - Macau; Pretty decent weather wise and trip wise.
Kunming - Dali - Shaxi - Lijiang - Shangri-La. This will have stunning natural beauty but understand that this is basically a list of some of the top tourist destinations in China, now there's a reason for that but all of these places get the majority of their income for tourism. It's like going to Hawaii or the Caribbean very very hard to get out of the tourism bubble. I'm not saying don't do it just be aware.
Just a note on planning I'm not sure if your looking at the Highspeed train lines but some of these clusters make me suspect you might not be so if your not definitely include them in your plan. Often it's quicker to go to a town the next province over on the train than taking the bus to the adjacent town. You could easily do something Like Xian-Chongqing-Congjiang-Yangshou-Kaiping. Because all those have train connections you don't need to cluster them. Trip.com has the Chinese trains if you get the app you can see where has connections and what time by plugging them. A detailed map of the Chinese rail lines can help but it's hard to find up to date ones because they are always adding new lines and stations.
Anyway once you do decide on an itinerary feel free to ask me specific advice
MayorofOysterville
13d ago
For winter I'd focus on the south. Beijing is going to be pretty cold and miserable and most of the sites that you'd want to see are outdoors and cold why do that when you can go to the South and see equally cool stuff in walking around weather. If I were you I'd go to Kaifeng, Chongqing and Guizhou province or maybe Guanxi depending. That gives you historical places. modern cyberpunk China and beautiful nature. I'd add Xian to your trip as a maybe depending on how bad you want to see the terracotta warriors.
Kaifeng has a lot of history that wasn't destroyed. It was the capital of the Song dynasty and there are lots of remaining pagodas and relics. I spent a week there with a rented ebike just going from site to site and didn't run out. It's a smaller city so easy to get around it was important historically not so much now. Xian has less little sites then Kaifeng but the city wall and terracotta army are wonders of the world and Xian also has better museums.
For a modern city in China I highly recommend Chongqing. Chongqing is having a moment now as a cyberpunk wonderland but that hasn't translated into more tourism it's an off the map megacity with few foreigners and very unique geography. I'd choose it over Shanghai anyday and I actually don't think Shanghai is a very good place for a tourist to go it's got lots of Western amenities but in terms of tourism going to excellent albeit pricy Western restaurants should be pretty far down the list. I just don't see what going there as a tourist gets you over the other big cities.
Guizhou and/or Guangxi get you nature and rural China you can visit picturesque mountain villages and picturesque mountains. It's evergreen so while the skies may be grey in winter the mountains will still be green and lush. Anyway that's what I'd do in your situation it gives you all parts of China while avoiding the worst of the cold. Before you go be sure to get a VPN for your phone and computer and connect your bank card to Alipay. Nobody here uses cash these days and although vendors are legally required to take it many can't make change and no one here uses it so trying to get around with cash is a a huge pain. Take the train when possible China highspeed rail is amazing, Wherever you decide to go i'm happy to answer any questions about those places I've lived in China for the better part of a decade and have been the places most tourists would go. Feel free to comment or PM me also happy to answer cultural questions but most of the dos and don'ts are fairly obvious.
This is also more rational then it looks on it's face the Soviets were the weakest they were every going to be from not having finished preparing their defensive lines on the new border to the officer corps still being a mess from Stalins purges. They likely would have done worse if they invaded the next year, also they needed the Soviets oil and were running out of goods and tech to sell for it.
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