Nerd
6d ago
Parenting: I thought fertility was declining, so which is it?
Meh I don't feel like this is necessarily contradictory. Even if fertility is falling for many people, the people that are parents still have their time pre occupied with children more often, even as the number of parents declines as a share of the population. They are so pre-occupied with their children that they don't make time for their friends, hence the friendships fracture.
I'm actually surprised by the lack of mobility, though. Perhaps more people think like me than i thought.
As a side note, hours worked has also declined. We've had car infrastructure for a bit as well, and we also see the decline in countries that don't have that infrastructure.
Looks like technology might be a key killer here.
Nerd
6d ago
Another factor, I suspect, is labor mobility. I'd have to double check (I won't), but I believe an ever greater share of people are moving significant distances for work. This puts them in the position of breaking existing relationships and puts them in the awkward spot of being an adult with no real social connections in their new community. And they may do this several times over their career.
I was kind trying to say this in the main post, & Richard is saying this specific thing in the video.
Thing is, i have no idea how one would go about rectifying this. The labor market is just insanely competitive and difficult, and many industries that are high paying or may be of interest to a specific person aren't evenly distributed across the country (there are more software engineers in California than Alabama, because Cali & 'Bama have fundamentally different economies). The alternative seems to be just biting the bullet and accept working $6 per hour at a gas station and buying the substandard trailer, whose best amenities consists of roaches & mold, for those who live in fundamentally poorer areas of the US. Not a very attractive proposition.
Aside from the dating recession, we have the equally important problem of the friendship recession. In the video Richard Reeves, gives some interesting possible hypothesis as to why friendships have been declining:
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Work. I can back this anecdotally. I have made a post on here about how tough it is to find work as a young adult, in my specific industry of IT. Id probably have better chances if I were to move out of Florida, and to Austin TX or Atlanta GA. They have a larger Tech scene (& honestly, as a tech nerd, it be nice to live closer to a micro-center). I would lie if i said i haven't flirted with this idea before, but I actually have decided to remain put, precisely because I love the close friends I've made living where I'm at currently. But I won't exactly blame others for moving around for monetary reasons - we all need cash and it sucks ass to be broke.
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He mentions parents & the amount of time now spent on raising children. This is HUGE in my opinion and needs to be talked about more: the fact that we can no longer free range raise our children as was done in the past is a great sorrow. It SUCKS to be constantly helicoptered and hand held as a child. I dont think I can emphasize that enough. It also doesnt need to be done, especially when children in other countries have much more independence, and are happier and healthier as a result.
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Break ups splintering friendship groups. If couples break up, it can screw with the friend group as a whole, especially if someone is crazy toxic or commits infidelity. I've seen this happen in friend groups first hand. Its not pretty.
The obvious elephant in the room here is the rise of social media. Where people mindlessly scroll instead of talking to people in real life. While i think this plays a role, sociologists have been recording these kind of declines since the invention of TV. I suspect something deeper going on. What do you think?
I commented on the dating recession as well previously, but ill add another hypothesis: The dating recession is probably downstream of the friendship recession (Ill make a longer post talking about this, separately. As i feel it deserves attention by itself.). Even today 2/3's of couples start out as friends first. The dreaded "friend zone" a lot of guys want to avoid might be your best shot in actuality. I suspect a lot of women don't want to go out on a date with a random stranger they met on the street, at a bar, dancing, etc. (although there are still a chunk of women where this works!), and prefer friends first as way to gauge compatibility (or they just value the friendship!). There is also a safety aspect in that you know that the man in question is a descent person.
One thing that should also be added here is that you have to be comfortable genuinely being friends with these women (not just a friends to get in your pants kind of deal.), and be comfortable with the possibility that it wont go in a romantic direction. Even if it doesn't go that way, you made a connection that's valuable in its own right, and you may be able to date other women she is in proximity with.
As for why women might not be keen on going outside to make friends, or engage in hobbies that lead to friendships. I'd suspect its a combination of the "friendzone" problem in men's case. And a jealousy/toxicity problem with many women, where they are jealous of how another women looks, or just a toxic person, etc. (the movie Mean Girls comes to mind). The decline of 3rd places also may play a role. Its not that those kinds of issues weren't present in the past, but people are probably much more sensitive to these issues now, for whatever reason.
Nerd
11d ago
For many people, "meaning well" and being nice is very important, sometimes even more than actually accomplishing anything.
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
A belief in The State as the ultimate sovereign, the final arbiter all authority, legitimacy, morality, etc... Everything within the State, nothing outside of the State, nothing against the State. Everything else is downstream of this core idea.
This is the best definition by far, and also readily points out what's actually bad about the ideology. (Crushing decent with violence, destroying any opposition, everyone forcibly conformed to the state, etc.) A lot of people who call trump fascist are focused on the way he behaves and how he talks about things. Its almost never about a specific policy he is pushing to achieve this particular goal. (And of course there are probably few of these policies, if any at all, since he doesn't have the authority to pass anything to begin with, congress must.)
The best i think could be argued is that he was heavy handed in his use of the feds from time to time with general protesting, deportation, etc., and that this is dangerously authoritarian. But that's a far cry from removing all opponents from politics and elections, or revamping the whole education system to be beholden to praising and loving trump and the administration. Things that these viscous fascist dictators actually did.
Nerd
11d ago
Meh, I wouldn’t say there is nothing wrong with it. It is after all, a dictatorship
Nerd
11d ago
Bro. Let’s be real here. The nazis threw an entire race of people in gas chambers and made them bury their own graves. Trump and the GOP have done nothing like this. That is almost certainly a bigger indication of lacking dignity than a dumb hick posting a video of trump beating a hockey player. In what world are the two even remotely comparable?
Nerd
12d ago
Ok, yeah fair enough. This is simply frustrating for me just reading it. Its like the author doesnt even understand the context here. Does he seriously think that interpreting what happened in this way fascist? Its not an unprompted attack that is being launched for no reason just to demonize the opposition. In this case, the opponent actually is attacking you in a "war" like fashion.
I decided to come in with an open mind and read this, and i have to say, im only somewhat impressed.
There are 7 primary points that I have a big axe to grind with, lets jump into it.
Blood & Soil/White & Christian nationalism
A fascist trademark is its insistence that the country is not just a collection of individuals but a people, a Volk: a mystically defined and ethnically pure group bound together by shared blood, culture, and destiny. In keeping with that idea, Trump has repudiated birthright citizenship, and Vance has called to “redefine the meaning of American citizenship in the 21st century” so that priority goes to Americans with longer historical ties: “the people whose ancestors fought in the Civil War,” as he put it, or people whom others on the MAGA right call “heritage Americans.” In other words, some Americans are more volkish than others.
While Vance, Trump, and MAGA do not propound an explicit ideology of racial hierarchy, they make no secret of pining for a whiter, more Christian America. Trump has found many ways to communicate this: for example, by making clear his disdain for “shithole” countries and his preference for white Christian immigrants; by pointedly accepting white South Africans as political refugees (while closing the door to most other asylum seekers); by renaming military bases to share the names of Confederate generals (after Congress ordered their names removed); by saying that civil-rights laws led to whites’ being “very badly treated.” In his National Security Strategy, he castigates Europe for allowing immigration to undermine “civilizational self-confidence” and proclaims, “We want Europe to remain European,” a rallying cry of white Christian nationalists across the continent. Taking his cue, the Department of Homeland Security has propagated unashamedly white-nationalist themes, and national parks and museums have scrubbed their exhibits of references to slavery.
Here is my push back for some of this: 1st, trump has passed laws that are in the interests of minority communities here & here There are some others as well. And has gone out of his way to condemn racists on multiple occassions 2
From the whitehouse website, the immigration that is largely approved is mostly from europe, asia, latin america, and oceania. A good chunk of people from these regions are not white, are free to come in the country. This is a heavily skewed exaggeration. White Christians are not being favored in the way the author wants us to believe.
I will concede here that attempts to white wash history (and the confederates) are bad, im not convinced that by itself is white nationalism. Even if it was, the fact that trump has been willing to go out of his way to help non-white groups proves that he probably isnt explicitly hateful in any real sense. To be honest, i dont think he cares for race that much.
As for europe. They have had enormous trouble with immigration, that warrants the type of nationalist response. The continent has been dealing with repeat violence and mass rape. This behavior is simply unacceptable. Your not a nazi for not wanting Islamist buffoons in your society, or for not wanting your societies demographics to shift towards those kinds of populations.
What’s private is public.
Classical fascism rejects the fundamental liberal distinction between the government and the private sector, per Mussolini’s dictum: “No individuals or groups outside the State.” Among Trump’s most audacious (if only intermittently successful) initiatives are his efforts to commandeer private entities, including law firms, universities, and corporations. One of his first acts as president last year was to brazenly defy a newly enacted law by taking the ownership of TikTok into his own hands. Bolton understood this mentality when he said, “He can’t tell the difference between his own personal interest and the national interest, if he even understands what the national interest is.”
So only one of the links given here is barely comparable to Mussilini.
Lets have a quick rundown of what Mussilini did to really get accross what is meant here: Mussolini sought to ensure that no independent centers of power could exist:
- Labor unions were replaced with state-run “corporations.”
- Youth groups, sports clubs, and cultural organizations were absorbed into fascist structures.
- Education was redesigned to indoctrinate children into fascist ideology.
- Religious institutions (especially the Catholic Church) were pressured, negotiated with, and partially subordinated through the Lateran Accords.
- Banned all political parties except the National Fascist Party.
- Suppressed opposition newspapers, labor unions, and civic organizations.
- Employers, workers, and the state were merged into state-supervised “corporations.” The goal was to ensure that every social identity — worker, student, parent, believer — was mediated through the state.
Targeting law firms, while certainly poor, cant really be equivalent too this.
The other link is him appointing someone to look over steel companies. This isnt him making the steel company a corporation of the feds. Whats likely happening here is that he is trying to appease the blue collar part of his base, and keeping steel jobs within the country. The intention here is seems different, at least to my eyes.
Then there is the part about the education cuts. Yeah, again, i agree its bad, but not fascism. The point of those policies is to reduce the federal governments influence and hand power to indvidual states and parents. This is the opposite of consolidation
Might is right
Also characteristic of fascism is what George Orwell called “bully-worship”: the principle that, as Thucydides famously put it, “the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.” This view came across in Trump’s notorious Oval Office meeting with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, in which Trump showed open contempt for what he regarded as Ukraine’s weakness; it came across explicitly, and chillingly, when Stephen Miller, the president’s most powerful aide, told CNN’s Jack Tapper: “We live in a world, in the real world, that is governed by strength, that is governed by force, that is governed by power. These are the iron laws of the world that have existed since the beginning of time.” Those words, though alien to the traditions of American and Christian morality, could have come from the lips of any fascist dictator.
While I agree trump acted poorly in response to Zelensky here, the quote "We live in a world, in the real world, that is governed by strength, that is governed by force, that is governed by power. These are the iron laws of the world that have existed since the beginning of time." Clearly strikes me as descriptive, rather than normative. It would of course be ideal if being strong wasnt the relevant factor, but thats not the reality of the situation. Those who have power makes the rules, doesnt make it ok, but it is what it is.
Territorial and military aggression
One reason I held out against identifying Trumpism with fascism in his first term was Trump’s apparent lack of interest in aggression against other states; if anything, he had seemed shy about using force abroad. Well, that was then. In his second term, he has used military force promiscuously. Of course, many presidents have deployed force, but Trump’s explicitly predatory use of it to grab Venezuela’s oil and his gangster-style threat to take Greenland from Denmark “the easy way” or “the hard way” were 1930s-style authoritarian moves. The same goes for his contempt for international law, binding alliances, and transnational organizations such as the European Union—all of which impede the state’s unconstrained exercise of its will, a central fascist tenet. (Mussolini: “Equally foreign to the spirit of Fascism … are all internationalistic or League superstructures which, as history shows, crumble to the ground whenever the heart of nations is deeply stirred by sentimental, idealistic or practical considerations.”)
Ok, so greenland comments here, fair enough. Bad. But on the bright side, he rolled it back. His foreign policy isnt the same as desiring to invade and conquer every country a la Mussolini. CFR notes that “many of [trumps] actions mirror those of previous administrations,” even as the strategic framing differs.
This is the last one im gonna touch on, because i find it so fucking gross.
Politics as war
A distinctive mark of fascism is its conception of politics, best captured by Carl Schmitt, an early-20th-century German political theorist whose doctrines legitimized Nazism. Schmitt rejected the Madisonian view of politics as a social negotiation in which different factions, interests, and ideology come to agreement, the core idea of our Constitution. Rather, he saw politics as a state of war between enemies, neither of which can understand the other and both of which feel existentially threatened—and only one of which can win. The aim of Schmittian politics is not to share the country but to dominate or destroy the other side. This conception has been evident in MAGA politics since Michael Anton (now a Trump-administration official) published his famous article arguing that the 2016 election was a life-and-death battle to save the country from the left (a “Flight 93” election: “charge the cockpit or you die”). In the speech given by Stephen Miller at Charlie Kirk’s memorial service, MAGA’s embrace of Schmittian totalism found its apotheosis: “We are the storm. And our enemies cannot comprehend our strength, our determination, our resolve, our passion … You are nothing. You are wickedness.”
Dude, for fucks sakes, the dude went and fucking murdered a man!. He almost certainly is not coming in good faith or wanting to be buddy buddy with conservatives or the people he perceive as fascists. Leftist extremist who are referring to others as fascists and desiring to bash the fash, and actually carrying out the violence are clearly asking for a fight. People have the right to denounce those kinds of people as the assholes they are. Last i checked, if you fired the first shot, you are the one starting the war.
This post is getting long, but i just wanted to rant about the parts that really bothered me
Nerd
12d ago
Yeah. Tons of younger women seem to be unable to effectively flirt OR to effectively and gracefully reject an otherwise polite advance.
You can give men all the coaching you like, but if the women they're targeting either completely shut down/retreat... or get nasty in response, then they will RAPIDLY decide there's no point to it.
I briefly touched on this on the original post. We can add this to the "Have more socialization at a young age between the sexes" solution.
Nerd
12d ago
This is something the data definitely bears out. It is better to find a spouse when young VS old.
Nerd
12d ago
I've been made aware of many people that work in tech here. I have a network topology that im thinking of adding a proxy server to in order to simulate real business needs.
Im doing this primarily for monitoring, security, and speed that proxy servers supposedly provide. The topology and information associated with it is here. Any critique of my topology is welcome! The main point behind it is that its roughly based on a school that has Active Directory, to which ill apply group policy to various users in the school, and policy to the computers once i add them to the topology. Im also trying my best to add security where i can.
Notes: This is GNS3, i unfortunately cant find any L3 switches or working firewall images, so im trying to accomplish these goals to the best of my ability, utilizing the images i was able to get up and running (mainly cisco routers and switches).
Nerd
12d ago
It's in lowering the temperature on the gender war. I'm happily married with kids and I want that for everyone. I think the decline is socialising, coupling, marriage and birth rates are all tragedies and so I argue (with data) against moralistic positions that blame either sex for what is clearly a technological issue.
Meh. I agree that technology certainly is playing a good chunk here. But we are still gonna have to do a bit of tweaking on the male end (masculinization + getting them highpaying jobs) to see maximum results.
Nerd
13d ago
They were born into a little micro culture that told them masculinity was bad and they believed it.
Honestly, i consider this to be almost as bad as the red-pill, if not worse. At least the red-pill had some truth underneath the toxicity.
Nerd
13d ago
What's your reason for assuming the interventions needed should target men and male behavior.
The other possible solutions are probably a no go.
Targeting womens sexuality would probably be a dead end with little return. We as humans dont choose what we are attracted to. Women as a group cant undo their desire for men with money and status any more than i as a man can undo my desire for hourglass figure, youthful girls. The best we could try is having them tought to look for more personality traits outside of attraction, but that wont do as much as good as simply making said person attractive to start with. You cant negotiate it.
We also cant reverse the reality of our economic system: the service economy is here to stay. Social and Mentally intensive skills pay, and i dont see a way around this, itll probably continue as AI make progress.
Is there something that men have started doing differently that we need to correct?
I touched on some of this in the general post: Not graduating college at the same rate, more likely to have little to no friends (lack of socialization), many are even out off the workforce all together.
I know it seems that im kind of unfairly targeting men here, but i see little alternative.
Nerd
13d ago
Along with status and social skills there is something like emotional mastery/inner state/self-amusement. It is the ability to reframe situations and remain in a positive mood regardless of the external environment. Instead of interpreting events as negative/neutral you take a perspective on them this is positive and/or gives you agency. If something goes wrong you might laugh, propose a solution, not be bothered, or behave as though the universe is teaching you an important lesson so that you may become wiser. You do not want to react to negative situations by getting angry or showing that you have no agency in the situation. This is a very complex topic and I’m not summarizing it well. It is not the same as being out of touch with your emotions.
This is essentially what a therapist will teach you. For reference: https://www.amazon.com/Feeling-Good-New-Mood-Therapy/dp/0380810336
Nerd
13d ago
Which is fine, but I'm more interested in solutions for society as a whole.
I think, as far as society goes. Raising young boys, especially those coming from bad family backgrounds with these points in mind + some sort of government intervention policy would help shift the needle.
We'd also need to raise wages for men who can not attend higher education, whatever the reason.
We'd also need to crack down on the american food industry so that people can be skinnier, much of the increase in obesity is basically both the quality of and the amount of food we consume. Becoming attractive physically will help a lot. Thats 3 i can think off of the top of my head.
Nerd
13d ago
I can understand not liking the nightclub scene. But I would give the laidback bar a chance; I see mostly older people at a lot of these places, and they are one of the few third places still around to find people today.
Nerd
14d ago
It's no secret that having status, charisma and being attractive gets you far in dating, and in life in general.
You'd be shocked at how many deny these basic realities.
But outside of that, you have a good point. As i mentioned before lack of socialization is really killing us here, but this post is geared slightly toward what an individual could do to max out his chances in the context of the current state of affairs (though i would like to see boys raised with these 4 things in mind)
Nerd
14d ago
I've seen this as well personally. I think this comes down to a combination of point 4, and the meme of "fatherless behavior". These women probably have mistaken these tough guy, treat people like shit behaviors to being "manly" due to poor upbringing. The fact that many women choose these bad actors definitely doesn't help the situations.
Needless to say, my own father & mother are happily married and he is nothing like tate. So its not the case all women are gonna fall for that. They are screwed in the head and you wont be able to have a good relationship with them. And we should also be teaching girls what to be looking for in a man, beyond just "tall w/ money". A lot of people find a person sexually attractive, and then scan for other traits later. Not a good strategy.
We shouldn't be framing the current relationship issues as just a "your a lazy bum" problem. The fact that it exists across societies indicates a larger societal wide problem beyond just the behaviors of individuals.
I honestly think it just takes consistently going out and doing things with someone. Ive had a best friend for 8 years now. I cant imagine my life without him, we met in college. I just asked him if we wanted to see a movie. Im mid 20s, i dont know how old you are, but thats what got me started.
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