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Fiat justitia ruat caelum

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Fiat justitia ruat caelum

				
				
				

				

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					joined 2022 September 05 01:56:25 UTC
				


				
					

					
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				Culture War Roundup for the week of March 18, 2024
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Let's say a child was missed in screening and was born alive with Trisomy 18.  Is it ok to kill the child then and there?


If the argument jeroboam is making is that after the first trimester the child is old enough to resemble what we value in a human, and therefore should have a basic right to life, then why would the presence of a disease change that?


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Friday Fun Thread for March 8, 2024
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


I'm assuming you're treating the covenant referred to here as roughly the same as the Mosaic one? That one definitely does promise life: "the one who does these things shall live by them," which Paul quotes in Galatians.




Do you believe that Jews who followed the Law went to Heaven without Jesus's death, and in fact would have made it to Heaven without Jesus' death?  I never heard that position before, but Paul's quote in Galatians does not support it. Galatians 3:11-12: "Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”"  The full quote is clear, the law is based on "living by" i.e. performing actions.  It's not saying the law provides eternal life.


(I'm going to start using the Lattrimore translation, because I'm noticing a lot of theological language smuggled in when I switch between NRSV and NIV.  Lattrimore was a secular Greek translator who is most famous for his excellent translation of the Iliad.  He did become Episcopalian towards the end of his life, but this conversion was after he translated the New Testament.  I think we're both trying to figure out the words as Paul wrote them, and short of studying Greek this is the best resource I can get.)


Let's go back to Romans.  Paul starts Romans off with discussion of Pagan wickedness.  Then he broadens it to discuss everyone's (even Jewish) sinfulness.




Romans 2:6-8: Through your hardness and your unrepentant heart you are storing up for yourself anger on the day of anger and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will give to each according to his actions: to those who, through steadfastness in doing good, strive for glory and honor and incorruptibility, he will give everlasting life




This doesn't sound like sole fide.


Then we have Romans 2:12-15 "For those who sinned outside the law will also perish outside the law: and those who sinned while within the law will be judged according to the law. For it is not those who listen to the law who are righteous in the sight of God, but it is those who do what is in the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the law do by nature what is in the law, they, without having the law, are their own law; and they display the work of the law engraved on their hearts;"


So from the beginning, Paul is referencing the Law as referred to Torah observance.  Gentiles "do not have the Law", but "display the work of the law engraved on their hearts."  Paul seems really concerned with telling Roman Jews that Gentiles are able to do good without being Jewish.  Because they are Gentiles they aren't participating in the nation-building or ceremonial aspects of the Jewish law, but rather the natural law or the moral law.


Throughout this, Paul is admonishing the Jewish people in Rome to not boast.  They are just as sinful as the Gentile populace.


Now we move to Romans 4.  So that I am not accused of ignoring any detail, I will go through section by section and explain how it makes perfect sense from a Catholic view:




1-5: What then shall we say of Abraham, our forefather in the way of the flesh? If Abraham was justified because of his actions, he has reason for glorying; but not before God, since what does the scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was counted as righteousness in him. For one who does something, repayment is counted not as grace but as his due; but for one who does nothing, but believes in him who justifies the impious man, his faith is counted as righteousness.




Abraham is the patriarch, the father of the Jewish people.  Abraham cannot boast because he had no power in himself to justify himself. Instead, God reaches out to Abraham and (despite some shakiness on Abraham's part) Abraham responds with faith.  It is Abraham's response that counts as righteousness.  Abraham believing God would give him descendants was a good/just/righteous action - it counts as righteous.  It doesn't count as neutral or evil.


God singling Abraham out is a huge grace that Abraham received.  Abraham did not deserve God's offer of a covenant.  It is Abraham's faith in God that was considered the righteous action.




6-12 So David also says of the blessedness of the man whom God counts as righteous, apart from his actions: Blessed are they whose lawless acts have been forgiven and whose sins have been hidden away. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not count. Now, is this blessedness for the circumcised or also for the uncircumcised? Since we say the faith of Abraham was counted as righteousness. How then was it counted? In his circumcised or uncircumcised state? It was when he was not yet circumcised, but still uncircumcised. And he received the mark of circumcision, the seal upon the righteousness of that faith he had when he was still uncircumcised; to be the father of all those who are believers through their uncircumcised state so that righteousness could be counted for them, and also to be the father of the circumcised for those who not only have been circumcised but also walk in his footsteps through the faith, which our father Abraham had when he was still uncircumcised.




Abraham was able to achieve one canonically righteous action (his faith in God's promise) before being circumcised.  Therefore, the uncircumcised Gentiles can also consider Abraham their Father in Faith (see that this is contrasted to verse 1, Abraham as the forefather in the way of the flesh.)  And the circumcised are also supposed to walk in faith just like Abraham.




13-15 For the promise to Abraham, or his seed, that he should be the inheritor of the world, was not on account of the law, but of the righteousness of his faith. For if the inheritors are those who belong to the law, then the faith is made void and the promise is gone; for the law causes anger, but where there is no law there is no lawbreaking.




God told Abraham that the his descendants would inherit before the Torah existed.  Abraham's faith was righteous (not imputed righteousness, but unqualified righteous.)  It cannot be that only those who follow the Law of Moses will inherit the world, because the law by itself does not justify.  "The law causes anger." This ties back to Chapter 3 verse 20: "since through the law comes consciousness of sin."  The law only reveals human weakness.  No one was ever going to follow the Torah all the way to Heaven.




16-21 Thus (it is) because of faith, and thus by grace, that the promise should hold good for all his seed; not only for him who has the law but for him who has the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all, as it is written: I have made you the father of many nations. It held good in the sight of God, in whom he believed, the God who puts life into the dead and summons into existence the things that do not exist. He against hope believed in the hope that he would become the father of many nations according to what had been said, that is: Thus shall your seed be. And Abraham, without weakening in his faith, knew that his own body was that of a dead man, since he was about a hundred years old, and he knew the dead state of Sarah’s womb, but he was not distracted with unbelief in God’s promise but was strengthened in his belief, giving glory to God and assured that God was able to do as he had promised.




Description of Abraham's act of faith. Restatement that faith is a gift, an unearned grace. Restatement that Abraham is the father of all those who have faith as well as the father of Jews in flesh.  There is a little bit of a comparison between God bringing life from Abraham and Sarah's dead bodies and God bringing spiritual life from the spiritually dead Gentiles, but Paul doesn't really elaborate there.




22-25 Thus it was that faith counted as righteousness in him. But it was not written for him alone that it was so counted for him, but also for us for whom it is to be counted, for us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was betrayed for our sins and raised up again for our justification.




Abraham's faith was righteous.  God made sure that this passage was included in Genesis so Paul could win this argument with the Romans that the uncircumcised can be saved.  I see very clearly the Catholic view of God sending grace, Abraham accepting the grace, and then that action of accepting the grace counting as righteousness.




This whole process is about how Abraham was justified, not his becoming righteous with this as one step of a broader whole (note: an aorist in 4:2, meaning a simple past action.




Abraham was dead when Paul wrote his letter, so whether he was justified or not would have happened in the past, not as something ongoing.   But 4:2 is an ironic negation - Abraham wasn't justified because of his action. Also, the aorist simply states the fact that an action has happened. It gives no information on how long it took, or whether the results are still in effect.  An aorist could mean that the action took years.  But however long it took, it's over now because Abraham is dead.




Chemnitz' examination of the council of Trent




All four volumes are $180, do you know which volume or page number you're thinking of?


Alister McGrath is a reputable Evangelical historian.  His book on the history of justification - Iustitia Dei - is widely regarded as one of the most comprehensive treatments of the subject.  McGrath writes, "[If] the nature of justification is to be defended, it is therefore necessary to investigate the possible existence of 'forerunners of the Reformation doctrines of justification...' [This approach] fail in relation to the specific question of the nature of justification and justifying righteousness... A fundamental discontinuity was introduced into the western theological tradition where not had ever existed, or ever been contemplated, before.  The Reformation understanding of the nature of justification - as opposed to its mode - must therefore be regarded as a genuine theological novum."


One of the foremost Evangelical scholars on the topic could not find a historical belief in Forensic Justification or the imputed righteousness of Christ.  I know that many Protestants believe in a great apostasy.  But I
personally expect that those who lived closest to Paul's time and spoke Greek in the same cultural context would best understand what Paul's message is.  And no one in the Patristic age read Romans and thought, "Forensic Justification."


For example, St. Clement of Rome who was bishop of Rome from 88 AD to 99 AD wrote, "Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works and not our words."  (1 Clement 30) This is someone who lived in Rome and likely read the first edition of the letter Paul wrote.  This is someone who knew Peter and Paul - Paul references Clement in Philippians 4:3.  If Paul was arguing sole fide, why was Luther the first one to understand it?


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Friday Fun Thread for March 8, 2024
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
In context, isn't "works" the ceremonial Law of Moses?


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of March 4, 2024
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


That aside, I'm actually curious what makes you think "mind" or "soul" or whatever it is you think explains and unifies ESP, free will and supernatural beings wouldn't be "material" in some relevant sense? Like, the material world already has radio waves and magnetism and many other forces that we can't see, but which we see the effects of in our everyday lives. What makes you so sure that ESP, if it exists, wouldn't just be one more invisible force that operates in our material world?




Cartesian Dualism separates mind from matter and attempts to study matter separate from qualia or mental properties.  The difference between ESP and Magnetism is that Magnets exist outside of an independent observer. There could have been a universe without life, but still had an electro-magnetic field.  A universe without life wouldn't have psychokinesis, ESP, etc, because these are all things that require a mind.


That isn't to say that they couldn't be observed in a scientific and methodological way, nor that the laws governing them couldn't be discovered.  But that is why they are typically withheld from the Materialist worldview.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Wellness Wednesday for December 27, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Get more glycine, it helps with recovery.


I would be worried about supplementing BCAAs.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of December 18, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Whoops, I'll delete mine.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of December 11, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
How many explanations, books, and tutors did it take for you to go from a child's understanding of zoology to a doctor's understanding of biochemistry?  That this topic is difficult to understand without gaining a background in metaphysics is not a serious argument against it.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of December 11, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Bishop Barron has been on the Ben Shapiro Show, delivered lectures for the Heritage Foundation, been interviewed by Lex Freidman, and many more.  If you look in the comments on his Youtube channel it does seem like many atheists, protestants, and members of other faith traditions watch him regularly.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Wellness Wednesday for November 22, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
That's great!  I hope the low-protein swamp diet works.  You could also try a heavy cream fast like ex150.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Wellness Wednesday for November 15, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Collagen is good, and one reason why I supplement glycine. But most protein sources are high in branch chain amino acids, which seem to cause insulin resistance in the metabolically unhealthy. Insulin resistance increases infIamation. I am trying to reduce BCAAs to 8g a day, at least temporarily. I'm not trying to reduce other amino acids, but as a consequence my overall protein is pretty low for this experiment.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Israel-Gaza Megathread #3
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
So the original sin is illegal immigration and porous borders, if we can use such terms when discussing the Ottoman Empire?


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 2, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


the Pope will encourage some sort of "help us live chastely" blessing for any gay couples asking for their relationship to be blessed.




I thought this was spelling it out explicitly, but I don't know what the word "chaste" means to the average Mottizen now.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 2, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I don't think anyone understands what I'm saying here.  If a couple came up to a priest and asked for a blessing to help them "live better", i.e. stop having homosexual sex, then that sort of blessing could be given.  That is the plain reading of what Pope Francis wrote.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 2, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
The prior response to the dubia lacked the Pope's inability to get to the point, but presumably it has the same level of authoritativeness as the current leaked dubia (Unless the Pope wants to go on record and declare the first dubia response was not approved by him.)


Pope Francis doesn't want to be mean and make wide sweeping declarations (except when it comes to liturgy, for some reason.)  The very thing that keeps him from giving a straight answer to a dubia is the very thing that will keep him from actually changing anything in the Church.  He wants to meet each person face to face, to discuss a situation in all its intricacies, but never act as a judge or king.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Small-Scale Question Sunday for September 3, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Here you go.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Friday Fun Thread for August 18, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Dreaming Spanish is amazing, it's like Muzzy for adults.  Thank you for this.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Small-Scale Question Sunday for August 20, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Look into co-ops in your area, identify the curriculum that interests you, and do your research.  Build up the case for the specific curriculum and in-person meet ups you could use. Instead of making a fear-based, "public schools scare me," case, try to convey what about homeschooling excited you.


For example, if I get to homeschool, I will use Memoria Press and weekly music/art classes at a local coop.  It's easy to look at Memoria Press' website and get excited about the curriculum.  Think of how sophisticated your kid would be, reading the classics in Latin by the time they're 14!


(I'm sure the actual reality of homeschooling is not so rosy, because anything involving kids can be like pulling teeth, but this is the sales pitch.)


But also, if you show that you're willing to defer to some sort of external group as to what curriculum you are going to teach your kids, it shows that you aren't going to be a, "I know everything better than anyone else" kind of homeschool mom.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
To put it very informally, if things that change need explanations for the change then if there is anything that does not need an explanation, it does not change.  If there is something that has the property of coming from nothing with no explanation, then it would be something that does not change.  You could say that things that change do not always need explanation for that change if you like. I'm not trying to prove or convince anyone of God here.  All I am trying to do is explain the distinction between God and the Universe that philosophers draw.


This is not a God of the Gaps argument at all.  Thomas Aquinas wrote his Five Ways in the 13th century , Sir Francis Bacon lived in the 17th century.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
There could be three fewer stars in the universe, and the universe would still make sense as a concept, but the effects of the gravity of the stars would no longer exist.  Within the universe, we can talk about things having cause and effect, firing a bullet really does cause a broken window.


The imagined God would not have such cause and effect internal to it.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


Why is it that the universe needs to be created but God needs no creator?




The universe is composed of parts that change.  Everything that changes is composed of the actual (what it currently is) and the potential (all the states it could be in.)  Everything that is composite like this needs some sort of explanation for why it is in this current condition and not a different state.


The classical theist definition of God solves this problem by proposing something that has no composition, no change.  Because there is nothing else that it could be, its current state needs no explanation.  This changeless, fully actual thing is that which we call God.  Based on knowing that it is without composition, fully actual, philosophers can then derive proofs for the other common attributes of God.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of June 26, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I'm not alleging anything, just supplying additional information. I don't know how to interpret the facts. I do know one theory was that the girl had been one of many kidnapped, but that is not the case.


I once wrote a quality contribution (tm) on my opinions around pizzagate at https://old.reddit.com/r/TheMotte/comments/jv161w/culture_war_roundup_for_the_week_of_november_16/gcw167l/?context=3&sort=best


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of June 26, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I don't want to say too much because she is/was a minor, but the girl is the daughter of a former business partner of Alefantis and there were a bunch of other photos of her in weird poses with captions like "Hotard."


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Small-Scale Question Sunday for May 7, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I've heard good things about Writing with Ease, if your interested in expanding the writing instruction.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Small-Scale Question Sunday for April 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Was this something the bare links thread helped with?  I forget why it was removed.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Small-Scale Question Sunday for February 26, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Hooked on Phonics is how I learned to read. Now they have a subscription/app model with most instruction taking place on the app, and supplemental books being sent to you. You get weekly progress reports asking you to target certain lessons/games. I have the app on the adult profile of our tablet because it's something I need to direct and observe.


Before this I tried All About Reading, but it wasn't clicking with her. It got to the point where she wouldn't even look at the words. There were also a lot of pieces and crafts.  Hooked on Phonics app at least has some novelty/fun to it and is better at building confidence.


Duolingo also has a reading program now. I don't like it as much because it lets the kid brute force their way through each lesson. But it's free and I can leave it on the kids profile for practice.