Pigeon
coo coo
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User ID: 237
Granted that Mao was not a good person, he didn't set out to kill 100 million people. He made some bad decisions that inexorably led to a famine which killed 100 million people.
Absolutely nitpicking, but I don‘t think Mao killed a hundred million people in the Great Leap Forward. The commonly quoted numbers are anywhere from 18 million (CCP official estimates) to 60 million (some of the more loony estimates), with most reputable estimates going from 30 to 45 million. (The commonly quoted one I grew up with was 36 million.)
100 million sounds like something right out of the Black Book of Communism, which has very artistic ways of arriving at casuality figures.
What on earth would be the scientific consensus around “animals are below humans” and “I eat meat, I don’t like eating lentils and kale” and “let’s find 8 earths to feed meat to humans”? Those are value judgements, not scientific theories and facts.
This is clearly using “scientific consensus” as intimidation and consensus-building, even if there’s a weak case for “if animals were on par with humans the original replier would consider otherwise”. A weak case that doesn’t even begin to approach your own rhetoric!
The reason that neo-liberalism must be so careful to purge society of crimethink is because we vote. I don’t think that all efforts for propaganda would stop, but the volume and ubiquity of culture war propaganda would vastly decrease if it didn’t matter so much that I personally sign off on various issues.
I’m not sure that the PRC has less propaganda than the Anglosphere…
Please, Name one aspect of Chinese culture that you would like to see implemented here given the option between it, and the similar version of it present in Western countries before the 1960s.
One late European adoption of an old Chinese custom is that of the competitive written examination, first advocated for in Britain and trialed in India, and then spread elsewhere. It is something that has already been adopted, yes, but I find your qualifiers nonsensical, and this serves as good an example as any for a far-reaching social institution that whites felt obliged to adopt for themselves.
A relatively moderate trans medicalist perspective as you described would be just as vilified by either side.
I am a transmedicalist. Unfortunately, if you ask me to choose between the virulent insane pro-trans group and the virulent insane anti-trans group, I’m going to pick the virulent insane anti-trans group, because that at least returns us to a more coherent system of social organisation. Anything to avoid the mangling of language, and generating the group of acquaintances I have with neopronouns and genders listed as anything from “genderfluid” to “centipede”. (I also happen to really hate the weird contracted cutesy names people of this persuasion tend to pick for themselves. It sounds extraordinarily fake and performative.)
Which is really unfortunate, because I think the actual medical condition extreme-distress-with-birth-body people do exist, and we should be sympathetic and accommodative towards them (within reasonable limits, and assuming that they are also reasonable and accommodative towards society).
Surely the culture war is interested in whether issues like these are sound precisely because they are influencing public policy around such important issues?
In which case:
Now you have to accept the bad actors as members of your own group. You made this bed, now you have to lie in it.
This doesn’t read at all like “we should tolerate criminals”, but “progressives advocated for these paradigms; now that they are seen to be damaging, progressives should take the hit to credibility for supporting these paradigms.”
Your comment is truly an interesting rhetorical invocation of “privatising the gains and socialising the losses”.
I despair when Mulan is really properly thought of as trans representation
Great show.
In terms of the writer’s political views, the show seems rather unusual. While seeking more women and less Oxford classicists in the bureaucracy, the writers also seem fairly keen on conscription and the build-up of Britain’s conventional forces, vaguely Euroskeptic. Meanwhile they seem to favour school choice, joke about the excesses of political correctness. The abiding theme is a distrust in the competence of politicians and the alignment of the bureaucracy with British interests.
That the show’s politics are a bit eclectic and ultimately converge on some vague anti-establishmentarianism shouldn’t be too much of a surprise, given that it was co-written by a right-winger and a left-winger.
I can think of no better term to encapsulate this phenomenon than the paradox of tolerance. Anyone who knows even a little bit about Islam can tell you that moslems aren't exactly friendly with gays, i.e. they are intolerant of the LGBT crowd. So what happens when you tolerate people who are intolerant of gays? You end up with the intolerance of gays, exactly as predicted.
Not this interpretation of the paradox of tolerance again!
For reference, the original Popperian paradox is more limited and much less explicitly progressively coded, and describes tolerance of people and ideas that refuse to be discussed.
The issue with the common misinterpretation is that it’s not much of a paradox at all.
Is "straight" a slur? "Able-bodied"? "Neurotypical"? Those, like "cis", are all neutral valance ways of describing a person as normal along some axis.
Honestly, in certain contexts I would consider those slurs. Able-bodied aside (and that probably because I don’t know that many disabled progressives), I’ve certainly heard straight and neurotypical used in the same way slurs are.
I'm more surprised that other people don't seem notice it more. Quite often I'll come across people accidentally revealing their power level, and when that's the case I think there's at least some sort of pragmatic decision to go with the flow rather than a real conviction in woke stuff.
I mean, these are people who will repeat all the shibboleths, but they're not people who go full tattoos + weird neon coloured haircut + nose rings + etc., but if you just clerked them on what they said their opinions are, they'd be very progressive...except I have good reason to think they're not really genuine about it. Unless you mean the people who really go hard on the acting obnoxiously queer part?
>You take that back!
I can understand pixie cuts, but I will admit to finding the haphazardly-shaven or buzz-cut-esque haircuts common in queer circles to be bizarre and unattractive.
Also the…jewelry. Why nose rings?
Whiteness really isn’t vague at all. Europeans had a shared culture that was deeper and longer than any other race category. Look at the bio of some composers or monks, for instance, and you’ll find Poles copying British composers, Italian composers in Spanish courts, German composers in Hungarian courts, Irish monks in Italy, French leaders reading Scottish writers influenced by old Greek epics, and so on. This stretches at least 400 years. We don’t even have to bring up religion.
This seems an absurd overstatement on its face to me, and suggests an abject ignorance of world history. India and China both have cultural works/institutions (and in the case of China, actual records) that stretch farther than the Mycenaean collapse, let alone Archaic and Classical Greece, and China is well known to have used the Four Books and Five Classics (texts written in centuries BC) right up to the collapse of imperial China, as well as for having an uncommonly stable cultural and civilizational lineage in general.
Accordingly all Chinese-speaking people I've talked to about it swear up and down that R1 is profoundly poetic and unlike anything else they've seen in its native tongue, they almost cry from how well it weaves together some classical Chinese literature and aphorisms and whatnot.
I can attest to this.
One of the first things I did with DeepSeek, knowing that it was a Chinese model, was to prompt it for a poem about pigeons, written in the style of Du Fu, as a joke. It surprised me, replying with a polished, if not very inspired, poem that obeyed not only general conventions about rhyme, meter, and parallelism; it even rhymed in a way that isn't natural for mandarin, but would have been in Middle Chinese (情 and 聲)! I've since then kept on prompting it occasionally with increasingly bizarre and unhinged requests for Chinese poetry in various forms, including:
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Improving a silly poem about a lonely cat, which it did reasonably well
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A recontextualisation of two of Martial's epigrams (5.34, 10.61)
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Two poems about a fat pigeon
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A poem recasting Lu You's pet cat as a pigeon
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Two unhinged poems about "carnivorous pigeons benching 80kg"
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Another unhinged poem about "pigeons in pink suits eating penguins while pretending to be fish" (suitably for such an insane prompt it took wild liberties with metaphors regarding "pink suits", "eating", "pretending", and "fish")
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Rewriting the Ballad of Mulan with a pigeon in place of Mulan
(please don't wonder too much about why I make a habit of feeding unhinged pigeon prompts to be made into Classical Chinese poetry, I just find it very funny)
All of them have been have something of beauty in their construction, even if they are a bit basic, and some have surprising bite. (The two fat pigeon poems were variously interpreted as a metaphor for decadence and over-abundance being a sort of gilded cage, and a more nostalgic/regretful look at previous glory respectively, for example.) I certainly couldn't write poetry of the same quality, at least not without extensive dedicated study.
And I find the surprising poetic knack to almost be less impressive than its general responses, where it effortlessly weaves together literary allusions updated with context and modern words together in sentences that wouldn't be out of place if it was a planned speech written by Chinese speakers much more erudite than myself, complete with references to classical texts when appropriate — this is especially true if you try to engage it with prettier language or some pretension towards the classical language. (If you write to it in very conversational Chinese, I find that it will reply back in that same register but with a more official phraseology.) The explanatory notes in the pastebin are illustrative of this elegant colloquial Chinese *(and I have to note that this is already rather on the colloquial and vulgar side for DeepSeek commenting on poetry; it can do much better). I wouldn't be overly surprised if at some point in the near future, speeches from the CCP (esp. from lower rank functionaries) suddenly improve significantly in lyricism and style from people prompting DeepSeek or some similar AI; for what it is worth, IIRC Taiwan's official communications often hew somewhat closer to classical language (though it will still be modern), so it may be less of a shift there.
Are there bits and pieces where there could be improvements? Yes, of course. I've caught it making mistakes occasionally in rhyme, and some of the metaphors/plot in the poetry (as well as some of the phraseology in the poetry) can be improved. The poem above is a bit disjointed with the last phrase being a bit odd; I've found some occasional misunderstandings of rhyme between some characters; one time I tried to get it to parse a passage in an old Chinese agricultural encyclopedia (齊民要術) and found that it misunderstood a character. But these are mistakes that could also be made by a person, and in general I would eat my left nut to be as good as DeepSeek is in the context of Classical Chinese.
(Though I might be a chump and not realise that it's been feeding me shit poetry this whole time since I'm not actually good at Classical Chinese)
I've also tried prompting DeepSeek with requests for original 和歌 (without even using bizarre prompts), and it is much, much worse at this than it is at 絕句 or 律詩 or whatever Chinese poetic form — it often can't even keep the number of syllables straight! So it does seem to be mostly trained on Chinese data, which might naturally corrupt Japanese output when it's as finicky as poetry, especially when many of the logographic glyphs used are shared but have different phonetic content in different languages. I wonder what would happen if you tried prompting it for poetry in other (non-Sinosphere, non-English) languages.
Surely then nonwhite people shouldn’t complain about erasure of their experiences if people of their skin tone aren’t represented, then, if demographics of characters in books don’t count as erasure?
If all the white people have kids with nonwhite folks (as those friends have) is anyone or anything really dying out?
I think this sentiment is only possible if you are convinced that there is no chance that your culture could die out or become unrecognisable.
Would anything be lost or die out if, in a collective fit of insanity, Japan decided to integrate - and intermarry fully - into the People’s Republic of China as a province? I imagine there would be a good amount of indigenous culture that would be discontinued. Of course, such forms of integration aren’t the only possible way cultures can irrevocably change or “die”, but I imagine it would be a pretty big shift with pretty monumental losses.
(Whether any particular instance of cultural “death”, like a language dying, is something to be regretted depends on your values, I suppose.)
Incidentally, these works tend to be catered towards the female gaze, and gay men often find M/M fanfiction alien or offputting.
Similarly with bara and yaoi in Japan, though this is by no means a physical law. BL is famously written by women for women.
I am not sure I would call it complete indifference, but isn't it well known enough that there is a marked difference between the empathy we give men vs women? IIRC it's common for FTM transgender people to comment on how much more hostile the world is. To writ:
A couple of years after my transition, I had a grad student I’d been mentoring. She started coming on to me, stalking me, sending me emails and texts. My adviser and the dean — both women — laughed it off...I had experienced harassment as a female person at another university and they had reacted immediately, sending a police escort with me to and from campus. I felt like if I had still been in my old body I would have gotten a lot more support.
What continues to strike me is the significant reduction in friendliness and kindness now extended to me in public spaces. It now feels as though I am on my own: No one, outside of family and close friends, is paying any attention to my well-being.
(And isn't the quote below revealing?)
My ability to empathize has grown exponentially [after transitioning], because I now factor men into my thinking and feeling about situations. Prior to my transition, I rarely considered how men experienced life or what they thought, wanted or liked about their lives.
(There were other anecdotes I recall, e.g. a trans man quipping about how he learned that people were much more lenient to women talking shit than men, and that he quickly got called aside to talk about how he was acting inappropriately once he started passing - even though nothing had actually changed in behaviour; but the WaPo article was the first one I found and it seems good enough to illustrate my point.)
Not to mention the actual litany of things that we do privilege women over men for, from prison sentencing to divorce and custody to education, the complete etc etc. Even most of the examples used in the trans rights fight is one group trying to gatekeep womanhood vs another group of self-described women wanting privileges available for women.
My personal experience is that when I try to destress with people (e.g. venting about an 80 hour workweek, or a crappy boss) off work is that - yes, there will be friends and family to empathise, but you get a much higher incidence of "dude not our problem" and "stop whining", as well as a general presumption that I'll be fine and it's not serious, compared to women - who people feel more obliged to reassure and to take action on behalf of.
On the more absurd side, there are things like that youtube video "experiment" (yes, n=1, but you get the point) on public violence where the male-on-female violence got bystanders to stop the altercation/call the police immediately, but reversing the roles lead to people cheering for the woman beating the man and sometimes joining in!
It's an effect strong enough that we call it the "women-are-wonderful effect" (or part of it) and discuss how it's benevolent sexism; but we don't call the perception of competence or increased expectations (e.g. with regards to life success) put on men "benevolent sexism", do we? And isn't that itself a bit suggestive of how we're more receptive towards Women's Issues? (I don't claim to be immune from this either!)
If I started crying on a park bench I suspect no one would stop to ask me what was wrong, and maybe they would for a woman (not a sure thing though, I wouldn't stop for a stranger crying in public, regardless of sex). But that's a marginal kind of scenario and I don't think that's what most people are getting at when they say no one cares about you if you're a man.
Is that really a "marginal scenario" (with the implication that it's not part of a larger trend of scenarios that would impact men)?
(wow didn't realise I didn't actually post the link)
It is notable that a lot of gay fiction is actively offputting to gay men, though, because it’s written pretty explicitly for women.
Focusing on the documentary village in particular.
The Villages are essentially a permanent vacation town of 150,000 or so old people (I think, wikipedia seems to suggest a smaller number). There are some absolutely bizarre and surreal scenes of 80 year olds getting drunk at parties, doing karaoke, dancing and so on.
I think the first two things that it made me think of were Wall-E and the Culture novels by Iain M Banks. Not that these people are particularly fat (in fact they're all rather active and healthy), but the decadent nature of it all.
Which part of it is decadent or distasteful to you in particular? Is it the unproductivity? The recreation? Why is it bizarre?
I'm genuinely very curious, being also a medical professional, how a person who "literally can't read [text] without making symbol transposition/translation errors" could read medical histories and patient documentation, or keep up with new literature. I could not do my job if I was dyslexic to that level, or at least I would be performing much more inefficiently.
If there's some sort of intervention that "cures" the dyslexia so much so that word and sentence recognition and parsing becomes "native" or at the very least second nature, that would make sense -- but I am to understand that dyslexia isn't really "curable". Or if psychiatrists to read very little medical documentation, which...seems incorrect to me in experience.
Open to be wrong, I don't have any experience with this personally.
Also "status" is absolutely a thing in masculine spaces, which is one reason why "I'm sorry, I was wrong" is never seen here.
I did get something quite close! It does happen!
But also—what happened in ‘22 to make crime the Current Thing? Are gender politics really going to drive up support for law-and-order conservatism? The biggest BLM talking points should definitely have shown up in the 2021 data.
My understanding (as someone who doesn’t live in the States, but has friends who do and other friends who keep track of local city news there) is that crime has continued to get significantly worse even after the pandemic. As such, I am not surprised in the slightest that there’s movement towards a more law-and-order position in America.
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“Are Chinese actually lizardmen” is certainly a take, given the sheer amount of moralising and, well, empathy you can read out of the ample historical annals of imperial China, even just from the court records.
This is to a significant degree true, and is quite well known by most who also know about the bystander problem in Chinese affairs. Makes me curious about what source you’re getting this information from, that they take away such context.
If we are to be trading polemics, allow me to quote Bertrand Russell who has a much more mainstream take:
It must also be noted that Townsend was very high on the Japanese, who are quite closely related to the Chinese genetically; and sometimes in ways that age extremely poorly, as apparently he commended the Japanese invasion of China for how “humane” its armed forces behaved.
Interestingly, here is what Russell has to say about the Japanese, at least vis a vis the Chinese, also from The Problem of China:
Interesting how a century changes things.
Anyway.
Forget careful societal analysis, we can dismiss this out of hand through a cursory glance at Chinese literature and philosophy. Would Dreams of the Red Chamber be written by a lizardman without empathy, and would a race of sociopaths keep record of poetry in the Book of Odes for three thousand years? Would a race wholly incapable of any tenderness found philosophies like Confucianism, where the first two of the five virtues are benevolence and righteousness, and Mohism (a warring-states philosophical school that was a major school of thought at the time), which has universal love essentially as its central tenet?
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Let me end with quoting Russell again:
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