TheLoser
1d ago
But because men and women have different preferences, and are looking for different things, by abolishing the sexual mores, instead of "lifting restrictions on sex" all we accomplished was locking men and women into a defect-defect spiral, which resulted in less sex for everybody.
Describe this defect-defect spiral. Because to tell you the truth, I don't see it in my experiences, and it seems to be a post-hoc explanation for an unexpected outcome.
TheLoser
2d ago
Sorry for the late reply.
Disclaimer: I read this like a year ago, so the details might be hazy, and I am not re-reading the book to give you a more accurate critique. Also, I will be spoiling the entirety of the book. Continue at your own risk.
Where to start? Well, at the obvious place; the author, Gabrielle Zelvin. Gabrielle Zelvin is half eastern European Jew, half Korean, who went to Harvard University. Now let's switch tracks. What are the deuteragonists of the novel? Sam Masur, a half-Jew, half-East Asian man, and Sadie Green, a bonafide women-in-stem. And here we arrive at the most obvious and glaring problem; it is painfully apparent that the protagonists of the novel are essentially self-inserts. Sam Masur represents the half-Jew half-Asian experience, and Sadie Green represents the women in higher education experience. You can imagine how a progressive half-Jew half-Asian would portray themselves, the narrative and their environment. Hint; annoyingly.
While I list out my grievances with this book, keep in mind that the writing is tumblr tier; overly saccharine, uses too many metaphors, and is generally unfulfilling/meaningless.
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The book is a narrative exploring the relationship between Sam Masur, and Sadie Green, through the narrative device of their joint game development company. Gabrielle Zelvin either doesn't play games, or is ass at describing games. As a gamer, there were many many instances of me tilting my head at some of the descriptions. They aren't strictly wrong as far as I remember, just not completely 100% accurate. Think the Doakes meme of him staring in his car; you know something's up but you can't put your finger on it.
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Sam Masur is used as a punching bag for Gabrielle to take out all her frustrations about nice guys on. I'm not joking. The entire beginning of the book sets up this weird dynamic where there is some sort of romantic tension between Sam Masur and Sadie Green. Sam and Sadie are literal childhood friends who go through a falling out; the natural conclusion is that there is going to be some tension. However, Sam Masur is portrayed as a pathetic, emotionally immature, ugly, indecisive, loser. He's literally crippled. Gabrielle goes at length to insinuate if not state that just because you are nice to a woman, you aren't entitled to be in a relationship with them. And I'm not kidding you, Sadie Green ends up with an almost caricature of a chad; a tall, emotionally mature, strong, smart, funny, Korean man. Oh and he's called Marx btw.
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Speaking of romantic misadventures, Sadie Green's professor, mentor, Dov, is also, clearly a stand-in for Gabrielle's own experiences with older men. Sadie falls for him, even though he has a wife, and undergoes an extremally toxic relationship that culminates in the grand finale for why this book is hot fucking ass, but more on that later. In short; this book is a barely concealed cathartic writing experience for Gabrielle to complain about guys she doesn't like; nice guys and toxic old guys women fall for.
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The middle part of the book is a mess, but in short it details the growing tension between Sadie and Sam, because Sadie feels that the media is giving most of credit with respect to contributions to Sam. There's that feminist lens again. This whole thing culminates in Sam metamorphosing into another caricature; this time of a tech-bro. He literally get's a buzzcut after a suicide attempt, dresses in turtlenecks, and transforms into a confident speaker in front of the press, in a seemingly miraculous reversal from his usual timid nature. And throughout this whole sub-narrative, you can feel the resentment dripping. Sadie is pissed off at Sam for being the face of the company, for getting most of the praise, for being charismatic, as opposed to her more reserved behavior in-front of the press. Again, you can literally see that the narrative is a soapbox for a progressive passive woman to complain about what they perceive as slights they receive from the world.
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The ending is the most political, partisan drivel you will ever see. The book's emotional climax is a shooting conducted at their studio, wherein Marx dies, conducted by a radicalized white teenage man, over the inclusion of gay marriage in their MMO. It's so blatantly biased. When I was reading it I literally thought to myself, "Are we forgetting about Charlie Hebdo"? It's progressive fanfiction, where their enemies actually do the things they accuse them of doing.
But see, all of these pale in comparison to the scene that utterly dooms this book. Remember that toxic relationship with the mentor I mentioned? Well, apparently, that relationship had a bondage element, where the mentor would tie Sadie up and shave her pubic hair. Also, that relationship lead to an abortion. But that's not the worst part. In the midst of this description, there's a throwaway line about how the mentor experimented with pissing on her. What the fuck. It is so against the run of play of the narrative of the book. Like, seriously, why the fuck are we talking about piss kinks in a fucking book ostensibly about game dev? That's the reason why I went crazy. This scene is emblematic of the overarching problem of this book. Which is that the book is Half-Jewish, Half-Asian woman smut/bellyaching wrapped up in the most meagre of narratives. The subtext drips with resentment that only a half-jewish, half-asian women could have. Its romance scenes include the scenes that would get women hot; the older mentor, and the bondage, and the piss and the pubic hair and the Korean chad. It validates all the annoyances/"challenges " that that demographic has; about asian nice guys, and people downplaying their accomplishments, and about toxic old guys they fall in love get manipulated into being with, and imaginary white extremists.
Another reason why I had a strong reaction to it was because at that time, a lot of sci-fantasy books were being written by asian women and recommended to me. And reading their synopses, you could tell that they had the same problems as this book.
Genuinely, we need to shut things down until we know what the fuck is going.
TheLoser
2d ago
I mostly think the old model of expecting marriageable women to be virgins worked really well, there were no pregnancy accidents, less STDs I'd guess, less jealousy on the part of the man, and less expectations for performance on the part of the woman.
I hate to point this out, considering that I myself am more of a traditionalist, but your own life experiences call in to question the validity of the above statement. Your father was immersed in that conservative culture, and he still had pregnancy scares and jealousy issues.
TheLoser
2d ago
Heck, Aphrodite, the goddess of sexual love, beauty, pleasure, and procreation, and is straight up naked in the game (though conveniently self-censoring with arms and hair) looks like a lesbian.
I don't know what sort of lesbians you're hanging out with, but that is definitely not lesbian presenting.
TheLoser
2d ago
I absolutely am saying that it contradicts the original theory. And it is strange if you think about it. Intuitively. it makes sense that easier access to sex through dating apps should make it more widespread.
TheLoser
3d ago
10-15 years lines up pretty precisely with the advent (or at least the widespread acceptance) of online dating and hookup apps. Dating and sex are commodities now, and the experience is significantly cheapened as a result.
And yet everyone is having significantly less sex today than 10 years ago.
TheLoser
5d ago
'Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow' is offensively bad. The contents of that book, knowing who wrote it, and the fact that a female east asian librarian whole-heartedly recommended it to me almost made me wish for a moratorium on east asian female writers writing anything. Holy fuck it was bad.
Was it engaging to read? Yes. Was it engaging in the same way watching a trainwreck is engaging? Also yes.
TheLoser
13d ago
Hold on there buddy, I'm not the one making un-sourced claims. If any sources you could provide would dox yourself, then the implication is that the sources are penned by you, or by your associates. In that case, any source you would provide would be useless, since in the end, it'd just be more of your work without third-party verification. However, if there is third-party verification, then surely you would've come across those sources in your illustrious, multi-decade long career; if so, do this forum a favor and please share them.
TheLoser
13d ago
Because there is not a paragraph in this book which could not be its own essay with citations, if not its own book, which precisely three other people could actually comprehend and none of whom would read it because I already know them and they already know what I think.
I'm writing for a more general audience. I'm taking a leap. I'm trying to show you what I'm seeing in front of me, because I think you're probably seeing it too and just don't know it yet; are in conflict with yourself about it, and no one else is going to speak the words you need to hear.
I value this community because it is the only place where I think I can make an honest fresh argument ... Put another way: The argument could be made rigorously, and long-form, only in theory. In practice, there's no other way to speak than elision. Else vital truths go unsaid.
I'm being as concise, accurate, and sober as I can here while still managing to say anything worth saying. I am not calculating for provocation or unrest. Those come naturally along with the truth..
Personally I am at pains to stay anonymous, if such a thing will even be possible five minutes from now. I don't want to divulge sources, or drop hints, or leave background information about myself. The most I can say is that I have an expertise in animal psychology and a great deal of practical experience, from which I'm drawing these insights.
Don't be coy and spare us the drivel. You know very well that the TheMotte is not the general audience, and that the norms of this community ask for clarity or specificity. Either cite your sources or be dismissed out of hand.
TheLoser
19d ago
So your objection is on the basis of association? Changes in technology and entertainment are irrelevant, because those changes are associated with youth, and therefore inextricably linked with nostalgia and childhood escapism? That does not seem rigorous or rational. Your reasoning implies that there can be no innovation/changes in entertainment, as long as those changes are associated with childhood. Obviously new technologies/innovations are going to be mostly adopted by the young. So naturally, those parents/young adults who grew up playing video games, will want to also play videogames when they "mingle".
There is no logical, objective reason why videogames are meaningfully different from darts or pool; both are activities that can be enjoyed socially. Besides, it's not like parents in pre-21s century were austere and joyless; they engaged in song, dance and play. It is a fact that what is expected of parents today is much higher than what was expected of parents in the past. Implying that parenthood is all about sacrifice is one of the reasons why child-rearing and starting a family is unpopular right now. Parenthood and familial life should complete an individual, not shackle them.
TheLoser
19d ago
If by Natural law you mean law derived from natural principles (i.e the Natural world), that does not necessarily imply abortion bans. Natural abortifacients exist, and animals kill their off-spring all the time. Many animals also engage in homosexual behavior. Why does Natural law then support your beliefs? Or is Natural law merely the name for your preferred moral sensibilities, in which case its arbitrary?
This dovetails into another topic that I, like you, don't have it in me to effortpost about right now, which is: how do you guarantee that your reforms don't change, and revert back to standard liberalism? Many of your proscriptions/desires/policies, resemble those of 1950s America, and we know for a fact that those changed to align with progressive mores. Does not the fact that we did have "Government policies that respect the natural law", and those policies were changed, evidence contradicting your claim that "Government policies that respect the natural law ... have the potential to create a literally virtuous cycle between law and custom"? That is empirical evidence that, no, conservative laws are not naturally resistant to progressive agitation, and in fact, seem very vulnerable to them; hell, conservative customs aren't very resistant to liberalization. So how can you be sure you won't just repeat the cycle all over again?
TheLoser
20d ago
They have by no means conquered the UK, as evidenced by the healthy and explosive pushback that has occurred recently. Besides that, they have been "liberalized" in a way. They smoke, they drink, and they fuck before marriage. They steal, rob and rape. They present as ultra-conservatives, and then engage in the most degenerate shit. Effectively, they've been converted into the homogenous globalized underclass, which Liberalism creates. Their present dysfunction is proof of Liberalism's power.
Lebanon's Islamisation occurred due to an influx of Palestinian refugee's, sectarian infighting, and a much larger state sponsoring said Islamic paramilitary. And besides, Lebanon was by no means a secular Liberal Society. The Lebanese Christian, Suni, and Shia, themselves, not the Sunni Palestinians, engaged in all manner of war crimes; these groups did not believe in Liberalism as you understand it. In the Middle East, ethnic and religious conflict is usually solved by appeals to overriding authoritarian nationalism, not by principled Liberalism. When that authoritarian nationalism falls apart, as in Lebanon, Iraq and Syria, then sectarian conflict occurs.
Hezbollah was not a genuine Lebanese reaction towards Liberalism. It was a foreign paramilitary force, funded, armed and supported by Syria and Iran, that took advantage of the Lebanese state's weakness; it was never indigenous to Lebanon, or had a broad base of support. In fact, due to Israel's war, they've been neutered as an effective force in Lebanon, so ironically, they are an example of Liberalism (or whatever the fuck Israel is) triumphing over Islam.
TheLoser
20d ago
Exactly what is wrong with bars with videogames in them, as opposed to normal bars with no videogames in them? Are parents not allowed to go to bars? Or is the presence of video games too childish for your tastes?
Pool tables and darts are standard fare in bars, so why is the presence of "video"games verboten?
TheLoser
20d ago
The Gulf's government (monarchy) is not conservative. It is an open secret that the Gulf monarchies drink alcohol, and fuck prostitutes. The reason that the Gulf populace is conservative, is because social conservatism is part of their founding national myth; khaleejis (gulf Arabs) literally define themselves as the originators of, protectors of, and most devout followers of Islam.
Islam is incredible intertwined with how Gulf Arabs see themselves, and is the reason for the population's continued conservative. Although, I do have to note that even that is changing. In 2022, Saudi Arabia formally cutoff its association with the Islamic clergy. The population is quickly becoming westernized.
TheLoser
20d ago
Government policies that respect the natural law and seek to make obedience to it easier push back against this, and they have the potential to create a literally virtuous cycle between law and custom. They also facilitate human flourishing, which is no small thing.
What does this look like? Be specific, and where possible, please point towards historical examples of these policies.
TheLoser
20d ago
True, but the GDP Abu Dhabi, which makes up more of the UAE's economy than Dubai, is still predominantly based on oil exports. Whether Dubai's wealth is sustainable or not without Abu Dhabi's economic engine is still in question.
TheLoser
24d ago
Values-coherence is a prerequisite for the formation and maintenance of a functional society; the aim is to achieve values-coherence with others, band together for mutual benefit and defense, and prevent rule by those who hate you.
I have to ask, becuase this seems like a pretty important wrinkle in your thesis here. To what degree and type of values-coherence do you require? You are a Christian, so I presume you are against pre-marital sex. In your ideal society, would anybody who thinks pre-marital sex is fine be expelled? Would anybody committing it be imprisoned?
My question really is how much values-coherence is enough; that is, where is the line? And how can you even quantitatively/rigorously determine where the line is?
TheLoser
24d ago
I am very curious to hear what you would say. Try to dilute the message so it's acceptable, as painful as that may be for you.
TheLoser
24d ago
"Ibrahim" isn't a Muslim name. It's literally jusy the arabic version of Abraham; plenty of Arab Christians from Christian families have it.
Ali is distinctly not a popular name in non-islamic cultures, since it is very distinctly Muslim coded. Also, I don't know where you got that Ali is the short form of Alexander from. The short form for Alexander is Alex, not Ali.
TheLoser
1mo ago
In a roundabout way, yes. He signed a letter that was used to support policies that funneled money and grants away from non-progressives to progressives.
TheLoser
1mo ago
While it isn't well know, there is an immense profit motive for trans medicine. Jennifer Pritzker came out as trans as an adult man in 2013, well before the social movement spun up in its modern incarnation. The market cap for gender transitioning is $200 billion. While I wouldn't say that the profit motive is the main reason for the increase in trans identification, it's at least a contributing factor, just because of the immensely powerful players identifying as trans, as well as the immense size of the market. The state of trans research is a mess, and recommendations are made based on faulty evidence; it is plausible that such reduced standards are pushed (or at least encouraged/ignored) by pharmaceutical/insurance companies that just want to make a quick buck.
TheLoser
1mo ago
Can you please give some specific examples about how treating women like narcissists/children works? Like specific anecdotes and stories. I've always heard that the red pill implies this interpretation, but I've never read any stories that actually show this phenomenon.
But I'm not calling your father a traditionalist. I was pointing out that despite being immersed in a conservative culture, (or at least presenting as conservative), he still fell into all the poor outcomes you described.
Do you think Church membership is a panacea to your father's ills? Every progressive was once the child of devout church-goers. Every liberal once went to Sunday school.
The point isn't so much about how much or how little your father was immersed in traditionalism. The point is that you can't expect a traditionalist culture/mindset to protect you completely from bad outcomes, by itself.
It's simply untrue that the expectation for the women to be a virgin led to reduced jealousy, pregnancy scares, and less expectations of performance from women. You want a tangible example? Islamists expect their wives to be virgins (and their wives are virgins) and are still jealous, and still have expectations of performance. All those issues you describe are issues effecting all relationships, not just "sexually liberated" ones. And if you think a traditionalist relationship will protect you from them, by virtue of it being a traditionalist relationship, then you run the risk of failing to uphold the very virtues you hold.
Do you think conservative parents don't go through divorce, or separate, or fight or get jealous? The Sexual Revolution was partly a consequence of conservatives failing to uphold the virtues they held. You can argue about whether or not it lead to better outcomes or not, but that observation is still true. Many, many conservatives professed conservative relationship mores, just like your father, and then completely failed to actually follow them; that failure undermined the entire conservative zeitgest.
I don't really know where I'm going with this. I guess I am just trying to push back against the feeling that the circumstances of relationships, rather than their actual action determine their development. "In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead" James 2:17. Don't let your theoretical thoughts about relationships dominate them, but allow your understanding of actual reality to guide your actions.
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