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ThomasdelVasto

Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου

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joined 2025 May 20 19:37:18 UTC

Blogger, Christian convert, general strange one. https://shapesinthefog.substack.com/


				
User ID: 3709


				
				
				

			

		

	














	


		


			



	

		

			

			

				

					

						

							
						

						

							
							

								
ThomasdelVasto


								

								

								
								
								

								
							
					
 
				


				
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου

				
				
				

				

					0 followers  

					follows 0 users  

					joined 2025 May 20 19:37:18 UTC
				


				
					

					
Blogger, Christian convert, general strange one. https://shapesinthefog.substack.com/



				

				

				

				

				

					

					

					
					
					

					
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	 Hot Bump Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
	



		

	






	

		
		

		
		
	

	

  







		

			
			
				Wellness Wednesday for May 13, 2026
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Congrats! Cruises are awesome. May you have many years.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Wellness Wednesday for May 13, 2026
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I thought this for a long time, until I started them and they immediately helped me out of years and years of depression.


I am on an SNRI and have chronic pain though, so it might be different than most.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Wellness Wednesday for May 13, 2026
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Wishing you luck brother!


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Wellness Wednesday for May 13, 2026
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I think SSRIs and that class are still the cutting edge. Scott Alexander has a good article about them but I can't find it at the moment, I think @self_made_human linked it to me a while back.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Wellness Wednesday for May 13, 2026
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Mmm I would say it tends to feel like a lot of tension in my body overall and just a sort of pessimistic outlook on life.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Wellness Wednesday for May 13, 2026
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Ahahaha I didn't expect that to work, but hey I'll take what I can get.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Wellness Wednesday for May 13, 2026
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Update since @FtttG already thanked me for my previous depression post, (read my blog already Ft!), but I am doing much better!


The primary issue in my case was playing too many video games, especially of the addictive, competitive kind. After I set that down I naturally went back to spending more time reading, in prayer/meditation, and generally just taking care of responsibilities at work and in the household, which has been great for my mood. Ultimately I find that in retrospect it's often quite obvious why my mood has dipped, but when I'm in the middle of a depressive episode it's frustratingly hard to understand or take action on it. Oh well.


I also want to do a quick shoutout here to anti-depressant drugs. For over a decade I dealt with depression and refused to take any prescriptions for it. While I do think it's good to resist treatment for a while, ultimately I caved and I'm glad I did. I'm on an SNRI and it has been a tremendous help to me. So if anyone is on the fence about it and has struggled with depression or anxiety for a while, I'd recommend at least trying some.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Wellness Wednesday for May 13, 2026
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
You should go ahead and marry self_made already so we can get him in here. Not sure if a doctor's medical license transfers with marriage, but perhaps it should!!!


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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You may be right, though I believe Luther was notoriously anxious about hell himself.


Calvinism and the resulting branches definitely focused on it more though, I agree there.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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I can't tell you how much I agree. I came to the same conclusion a few years back, persuaded by similar arguments. I have some notes. First, your section on aiōniois is pretty good, but you could make a stronger case by also mentioning Romans 16:25:




Thanks for the feedback! Yeah I could've gone deeper into the Scriptural arguments, but I felt I had enough to at least question the premise that infernalism had to be right in an absolute sense. I know that it goes far deeper than what I laid out!




Once you look past the authorities and their grand proclamations of Hell being eternal, most of the arguments for how a benevolent God could possibly allow such a thing strike me as weak - even the higher quality arguments proposed by great figures like CS Lewis don't stand up to scrutiny. It ultimately comes down to whose authority you trust, and the original scriptures muddled through the lens of our modern English translations.




Very strongly agree. As I pointed out a couple times, a benevolent God torturing His creations for eternity just makes zero sense to me. The argument is always "but we need free will!" which I actually didn't cover here, to my chagrin, but that feels extremely weak to me as well. So God created us knowing many would choose eternal torment... that's still evil!




which argues that Universalism was a majority or at least commonplace view in the early church. If that's right, then the whole thing reeks of a doctrine endorsed for social engineering purposes.




I mean yeah it's obvious to me at least that the temporal church has been corrupted throughout history and used doctrine as a blunt instrument to force control onto people. I don't think any clear eyed Christian with a good grasp of history can argue any differently.


To me it helps that I'm Orthodox, as the official Orthodox position leaves a lot more room for the temporal church being fallible than the Catholic position does. You wouldn't know it interacting with many Orthobros online, but there is plenty of dissent amongst the Orthodox church about the decisions of the hierarchy. Orthodoxy is, by it's nature, far more democratic and council oriented than Rome, so it feels far more flexible and alive to me, in terms of doctrine.




In the end, however we argue about it, we'll meet God one day and have to accept the truth, whatever it turns out to be. Thank you for posting this. I've really enjoyed your posts on your faith journey and would like to see more.




Hey I really appreciate this sentiment! I have definitely hesitated at some points since a few folks seem to be kind of surprised or even offended I'm posting it here. But I have also gotten enough positive feedback that I feel it makes sense to share here.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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My understanding is that it's rare to find a writer like Lewis who is both skilled enough to paint a good picture, and schizo enough to actually try it. Given that Christ Himself told us we'll never know about the afterlife, and the general attitude of the major churches towards it, most Christian writers are understandable hesitant to tackle that problem. Lewis was quite courageous.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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I do have to say, I always thought the "noble lie" or using hell as a way to motivate people was just dumb. Whatever happened to intrinsic motivation? Whatever happened to people behaving well because it makes our time on earth more pleasant/civilized etc? But I've always been one of the "good kids" so I have a really hard time getting into the mindset of someone who just always gives in to their vices and doesn't care who they hurt or the damage they cause along the way. But fear of hell was never a motivator for me.




Yeah I was quite surprised how many people trotted out this argument when I started discussing universalism. Seems quite common, for some ridiculous reason. I agree that it has never been motivating for me, instead it's the exact opposite. The fear of eternal hell always just crippled me when I believed in it.




but in your essay you've cherry-picked all the verses that support universalism. There is plenty of material that supports just punishment as well.




There is absolutely a lot of Scripture that indicates infernalism, or annihilationism as you say. I admitted in the post that I didn't do an exhaustive exegesis on all of Scripture, and frankly the more obvious answer is a sort of infernalistic or annihilistic view. However, I found enough arguments to at least hope for universalism! Perhaps I wrote too strongly.


That being said, there's no reason there can't be a separation and an eventual reconnection. God can do what He wants. Perhaps after the end of this age, those sent to damnation are given another chance in another universe, in a completely different way of life. Perhaps they are indeed annihilated. Perhaps it's something far stranger! We simply don't know, and will never truly know.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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My pleasure! I see my plan worked, mwuahahahaha!


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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At least in the US, I wonder if cultural anti-intellectualism causes the intellectual Christians to stay quieter than they would otherwise be. As if it was something shameful, that they couldn't accept their beliefs on pure faith and needed to waste energy on unimportant theological nuances.




I suspect it's something to do with this, and also the Protestant roots. Protestants took the infernalist rhetoric and turned it up to never before seen extremes. Contemporary Protestant churches have chilled out a lot, but besides the Quakers, most of the early sects were all-in on motivation through fear via fire and brimstone preaching.




Infernalism's dominance repels people like me who would be interested in learning more but hesitate because of the crowd it attracts.




This is the point I try to make to other Christians. It also repelled me for a long time. I hope that Christian culture as a whole can move towards more intellectualism and grace, but we'll see.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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Interesting! I appreciate the clarification.


And yeah, I'm not too into logical consistency which is part of why I'm Orthodox hah. I follow my heart before my reason.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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Good question! I don't really know or understand much about angels, not going to lie. They seem less like persons and more like forces of nature in a way. Then again Satan must've had free will since he betrayed God. I suppose I'm not an angel so I'm not as bothered.


But yeah to be consistent I guess the demons would have to be saved in eternity too.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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I will say that I think the "eternal conscious torment" theory is bunk. Like you said, it simply does not fit with a supposedly loving God. But even an infinitely loving God can't (or rather won't) force people to love him, so I think that hell as a self-inflicted privation of good, rather than a punishment, makes sense. Beyond that, though, it's hard to say. Perhaps the "souls outside heaven will eventually be annihilated" people are correct, perhaps the "all will eventually choose to submit to God" people are correct, perhaps the "after we die we don't get to change our minds because spiritual beings can't change their minds" people are correct. I don't know, but thankfully it doesn't keep me up at night or anything.




Yeah I'm with you here. I think I am the type of person it does keep up at night, and there are many like me. Even the idea that eternal conscious torment could be true, and the fact that so many Christians loudly proclaim it (falsely) as official church dogma, is unacceptable to me. I'm grateful so many others have done the hard legwork to prove that it isn't necessarily what the church has taught, or what Christ said.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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I’m sorry it came across as insulting, that wasn’t my intention. You’re obviously a very moral, compassionate person who’s experienced a lot of pain, and I’m glad that you’re able to find community because that’s the most important thing in life.




Hey no worries I forgive ya. Sounds like you have been through a lot in your time as well. I hope you find a community, if you don't have one already.




You seem to be aware of the contradictions, of the problem of evil, of the injustice of eternal damnation, so you do all this work to find an interpretation of Christianity that doesn’t make God to be evil. But why?




I mean, the short answer to me is that I tried all the gnosticism and buddhism and other personal spirituality for a long, long time and it didn't work. Well over ten years. Perhaps it's utilitarian of me, but coming to Christ is the first thing that started to make my life better when I was in a really difficult place. I was extremely skeptical when I first starting considering it, and frankly I still have a lot of doubts and questions and wonder what the heck I'm even doing. But I know that I feel much better, and act as a much better person, when I go to church regularly, pray, and invest in my faith.


Jordan Peterson talks a lot about different kinds of truths. There's 'objective' truth (which has a lot of problems), but there's also a sort of personal truth, or experiential truth, or narrative truth. He pulls heavily from Carl Jung as well. John Vervaeke has a great series going into the distinction at points too, Awakening From the Meaning Crisis While I don't fully agree with the Peterson/Jung framework anymore, it helped me realize that there is more to life than 'objective' truth, and opened the range of what I would consider as a realistic worldview quite a bit.


Anyway, conversions are complicated and messy things ultimately. I couldn't really explain exactly how it happened even if I wanted to, nobody can. I was lucky enough to get the opportunity, and I took it. It's not always easy but I am grateful as my life has, as I said, gotten far better in almost every way.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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I enjoyed the Great Divorce, but found it somewhat unsatisfactory! I guess my view is that if people have literally forever to choose, they will eventually get fed up with hell and come to God, because He will not abandon them.


That being said, some sort of oblivion/destruction of the soul could be feasible after the End of Days, or whatever you want to call it. I don't love it but it's at least a far more justifiable argument compared to eternal conscious torment.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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I admit I find atheists who convert fascinating in a kind of horrified way. I even understand the impulse, to want to believe.




I think it helps that I was never a serious Christian, became an atheist pretty much immediately upon encountering real questions and difficulty as a boy. Falling away from faith and coming back seems like it may be harder, somehow?


But yes, ultimately strict materialism is basically a closed loop, can't be disproven. That itself is part of what made me question it. Then again I'm a bit of a weird Christian anyway.


I appreciate the rest of your points. I'd say that one of the biggest problems with the history of the church is we lose sight of how mysterious Christ is, and how strange the things He said were. David Bentley Hart does a great job explaining this, but the biggest mistake Christians make is that we think it's all figured out. I don't believe it is.


Ultimately in a modern (or post-modern) world we are all interpreting things like Protestants, whether we like it or not. No believer of any religion who wants to live in modernity has the luxury of just blindly believing on what is sometimes wrongly called 'faith.' I am willing to use my reason, my heart, and my moral intuitions in conjunction to inform my beliefs, and don't see a problem with that.


In terms of believing in Christ, I get it! It's weird and crazy and doesn't make a lot of sense. I had personal experiences that convinced me. I'm not here to convince you, if you don't have similar evidence I don't necessarily see myself convincing you. I wouldn't have been convinced.


Frankly I had to go through some horrible shit before I was humbled enough to start questioning my materialistic philosophy. I genuinely hope you don't have to go through anything similar.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Why successful people often have bad opinions online
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I also think that there's the problem of being too successful your whole life. You often are overly prideful and don't learn to humble yourself, learn to be wrong. You are far more confident than appropriate for the situation. You lose calibration to actual truth because everyone around you is sycophantic due to your status.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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On the popularity of infernalism, I guess it's because fear of hell is an easy to apply, reasonably powerful motivator that can be taught to children with low effort.




Yes exactly, I think this is a huge factor. In the early church it wasn't nearly as popular, but as the church grew in power and gained more control, we started using more blunt instruments I guess. Protestants really took this to an extreme with their obsession around making absolutely sure they were saved.


Which, you know, if you believe in eternal damnation, makes sense that you would be obsessed with figuring out how to be saved!


Anyway, glad you found it interesting. It is definitely not super common to discuss, largely because the traditional Christian churches are full of people who don't think very deeply about anything and scream "heretic!" any time someone brings up a theological concept that goes against their limited worldview. It has definitely been a frustrating part of my own conversion to Christianity, but luckily there are many intellectual Christians as well, they just tend to be a bit quieter.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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Hah I'm glad you think it's an interesting view, even if it's still a strange mindset.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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As far as I'm aware, those rules apply only to the Culture War Thread, and not to main Motte posts. I'd be happy to ask @self_made_human or @cjet79 for clarification though.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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If you are relying on your moral intuitions anyway, why even go with the Christian God and have to go through these tortured interpretations to bend the Bible to your moral values?




I'm not relying entirely on my moral intuitions, though I am relying on them in terms of finding a church.




The Biblical God is obviously a wrathful, evil deity who is responsible for the pain and suffering of billions upon billions of humans and engages in cosmic blackmail to get you to love and worship him.




The Biblical God is not obviously evil, have you heard of something called the New Testament?


I would continue to reply but the rest of your post shows you aren't interested in actually discussing this, just insulting someone you disagree with.