ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
There Is Always Hope
User ID: 812
Do Hindu nationalists have a "utilitarian perspective" on society? (Honest question.)
This is probably answered by the sentence just prior.
Foreigners in a society aren't going to care about it as much as people who are actually indigenous to that society.
HinduNats believe they're entitled to a certain society that they haven't quite achieved (in their view), a society that's purely territorial and can only be achieved on the subcontinent. When subcontinental issues become part of UK culture wars, then yeah, they're gonna feel especially more loyal to their society of heritage and not their hosts. Because the one thing I can tell you is that Indians take things super personal. Are Brit Pakistanis who routinely demand that the UK must bring up Kashmir more loyal to British society or they are more loyal to Pakistan? After all, the tidings in Kashmir don't directly affect the average English in any way. It's just a rat race to "prove" that the other side must not be believed, but perhaps the Indians will find a bit more purchase because their demand (at least, insofar as Indian officials are concerned) is that foreigners stop making issues domestic to South Asia their own, stop obsessing about it so much and "mind their own business"?
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1yr ago
Forgive me if I'm misreading you, but I take it you mean black pill beliefs don't necessarily stem from reality? If so, I don't really disagree. My point is that the response itself need not be reasonable and there could be more to the data than the OKCupid stats for example might reflect. But if some asocial Asian fellow in an Ivy League school sincerely believes that even if he shoots for a Lanny Joon physique, he'll never match the SMV of an average white athlete in his class, and ends up deciding that it's all too much effort for too little gain that isn't even guaranteed (in his mind), is it really just a coping mechanism or has he prematurely given up on life altogether? There's still a section of woke who'd sympathise with fat activists, but a maladjusted young male who effectively exists as a ghost in society, who can literally disappear today and no one will notice and let alone miss him, is fair game for shaming regardless of his ethnicity.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1yr ago
I don't think much is going to change besides some aesthetics. I do suspect Tory Indians will end up deporting the grooming gangs to signal to the more right coded voters that they're the 'right kind' of minority. Stoking the immigration debate and other culture war issues is a neat way for the party to distract the public from the mess the country's found itself in in the last 10-15 years. Then going on to sanction Russian oil just two years after formally withdrawing from the EU. And it turns out, importing subcontinental issues like Kashmir was not wise. It snowballed into everything from the Modi-Boris leaflets in Batley and Spen to Leicester to Khalistanis vandalising the Indian High Commission a few weeks ago apparently to protest the Indian government's crackdown on insurgents in Punjab, prompting Jaishankar to make more abrasive statements about western hypocrisy just months after he took a shot at the west for 'preferring Pakistan's military dictatorship over India while Russia stood by them' (obviously in reference to the 1971 war and genocide). You can't expect multiculturalism to succeed whilst also signaling strong stances as the 'correct stance' on divisive issues that have historically escalated into conflict.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1yr ago
Dating apps have a severely skewed gender ratio, so the competition is indeed stiff no matter how much work men put on their profiles. Throughout university and even after graduating, I've always found my dates through shared hobbies and mutual friends. Never installed a dating app on my phone and don't plan to.
The most frustrated young men seek companionship in online echo chambers filled with depression, anxiety and body dysmorphic disorder. None of them have learned to talk about their problems. It feels easier to take what they call "the black pill", the belief that you are genetically predisposed to be ignored by women.
Well I partially agree, though I'm not sure it's easier to take the black pill that you're inescapably fucked genetically instead of just deferring your happiness to the future. "I'll get there but I'm finding myself right now" is an easier coping mechanism than "It doesn't matter how much I lift, how much I read and how much I spend on clothes, I didn't win the lottery at birth and all that awaits me is a lifetime of desolation and solitude". Guys who take the black pill genuinely do believe what they say, they aren't merely making excuses to avoid overhauling their lifestyle and routines. And the only medium of human interaction they're exposed to confirms every negative bias they have about themselves, be it through what randoms say online about them or through "experiences" of men like them. You see this kind of behaviour the most among Asian-centric spaces, particularly South, East and South East Asians. So they give up, because they do believe it is futile to try.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1yr ago
Feminist history has always latched on to a superficial oppressor-oppressed analysis of gender roles and anthropology, rather than a natural order followed across most cultures and time periods throughout the world. History has become a battleground for the culture war, and current politics incentivises it.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1yr ago
Then the vast majority of the people on the planet for the vast majority of human history would be "mentally deranged", so what is mentally healthy? I think the query you're trying to pose here is whether intelligent and well educated people (that is, neither mentally disabled nor ignorant) can hold irrational beliefs, to which I would say yes.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1yr ago
The fact that they kept Arwen white made the blowback a lot worse in some wignat circles on twitter. Although the reverse wouldn't have calmed the backlash to a significant extent either, I think.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1yr ago
Height is overrated. And when I say this, I don't mean women don't care about it much which is demonstrably not true. No, what I mean is, men keep stressing too much importance on this aspect of themselves. The outcomes can be positive if they work on areas that are within their control.
My anecdote: I'm actually below average in height, but I am fit and used to be in damn good shape before the 8 hour desk job got me craving to sink back into bed the moment I get home. I did get decent game in college, quite a few interracial successes too. Despite having been an introvert all my life, I managed to be a social butterfly. I knew someone in literally every store in the suburb I lived in, hell I don't recall even once paying for my movie tickets during my time there. And I wasn't even from the country.
And then there are two of my oldest friends. One of them is 6'2", mildly overweight, very social but too shy to ask anyone out, and somewhat below average on facial features. The other is 6'0, fit, very attractive but not too social. Both of them have well paying jobs. And both are still virgins.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1yr ago
That's an extreme example though. A 5'6" guy can reach most places he'd have to realistically reach, with more difficulty obviously.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1yr ago
If he asks her out on a date, which is the more conventional thing....this situation is maybe what...80% of what it is? I don't think it's THAT sizable of a difference.
Why so? If he'd simply asked her if she'd be keen for a cup of coffee the next morning (as in, make a harmless offer and make it clear refusal is a valid option) and she'd politely refused, it would be very different. Sure, she might feel weird around him for a little while, knowing that he has some interest in her as a potential date, but will likely still talk to him. And if he'd started seeing someone else (her proof that he's no longer trying to pursue her), it would be like he never asked her out at all. Definitely won't get into "permanently strained and impossible to mend" territory.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1yr ago
women are picky
their overall attitude about women
Both these statements can be true though. Most loveless men don't turn out like Elliot Rodger. For all the vitriol online, they tend to be very non-confrontational in real life (and perhaps this inability to express themselves explains their online activity, since it has no checks and balances). You see nearly nothing about their personality and mentality, except that they're very anxious. Flouting even a single minor social norm by accident would send them into panic. The mentality is certainly a problem, but imo the problem lies in how they see themselves, not how they see others.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1yr ago
This is true in this case, but it's not "prostitution" if both parties benefit from it.
But using this as the premise, "prostitution" as a concept itself is a fiction, yes?
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1yr ago
The notion that men can be genuinely not guilty of some failure relating to relations of sexes – whether to score or to sire – is about as far outside the Overton window as HBD. ... [from the progressive point of view] It can't be that the solution lies in any conceivable change to female behavior, except even more emancipation, even greater triumph over toxic masculinity.
This reminds me of this CNN story from a while back about why men are leaving the workforce. They try to present a rosy answer: women are entering the workforce and smashing the patriarchy in male dominated fields, and they're so successful at it that they've managed to reverse gender roles to get their husbands to stay at home and look after the kids. But this is just a minority in millions. The vast majority of this trend is actually driven by low social status and decline in marriages. I often wonder if they genuinely believe this or if it's just damage control.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1yr ago
Could it not simply be that these mens moral characters are fine, but they simply lack the resources and experience many women desire?
Well, dating dynamics still don't favour Chinese and Korean men in the west despite pulling a hefty paycheck. Many are virgins even in their 30s. Ditto with Indian men, but arranged marriages and the low desirability of their own women ensure (heh) the problem fixes itself after a point. Feminists are very bent on subverting "unrealistic standards of female beauty" in the media, yet are perfectly fine with unrealistic standards for men, part of the intention is to artificially lift their status in the sexual market. I suppose that somewhat explains why South Asian and Black women in the west tend to be the most woke. They're both minorities in a largely white culture, but they have no equivalents to the yellow fever.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1yr ago
IIRC he had made a request on their website, and they required him to leave them his number so they could tell him where to meet the girl on text. It was some masseuse place as a front, he had to take the back door for 'special services'. I find it interesting that they didn't give him the quote right then or indeed list the prices on their website. Unless he was after something comically specific which, knowing him, probably isn't off brand.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1yr ago
Nope, Minnesota.
This would be like if someone left me a letter at my doorstep, which claims to be from ISIS but they don't write much glorifying Islam and Allah and fighting in His name, but just me calling me an infidel and themselves a "violent Islamist group". Plenty of suspects in my neighbourhood, all of them annoying teenagers. I too have an interesting anecdote: a friend of mine approached an escort and requested a quote, but left once she gave him one he couldn't afford. A few hours later, he got a text message from a guy claiming to be from the Sinaloa Cartel. Apparently, they ran the escort service and he demanded that he pay them $1,500 for wasting their girl's time or he was gonna die. That he had 1 hour to look for the money. My friend played around melodramatically acting like he's been scraping rock bottom for several years now and lives with a family he now hates, so they're free to take him. He asked them to send a picture of the girl to make sure they actually had the right guy because he didn't want to waste their time, but never got a reply. He's been waiting for over a year.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1yr ago
But why is an ever climbing population still so idealised? Surely, having slightly less people over the next few generations shouldn't be a disaster. The key issue is the composition of the population, poorer sections and criminals having higher birthrates.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1yr ago
What is the end goal of all this, in your view? Culture wars to avoid a class war? If so, why now and not, say, 20 years ago?
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1yr ago
I suppose a counterpoint to the 2nd paragraph would be that it's also comforting to blame a select few groups for the cultural crisis, but it's much more black pilling to believe that a sizable chunk of the masses isn't merely being misled, but is very much within its own agency when it demands more wokeness. And to some extent, what's most fashionable among the woke urban middle class does seem to direct the conversation. For instance, throughout the last decade, it was all feminism that was pushed so aggressively as the centrepiece of woke. Culminating into MeToo which went on until 2019. It's still being pushed of course, but the spotlight is on BLM since the George Floyd protests and the whole "Defund the police" campaign. I just cannot rationalise such a scheme without making it seem even sillier. There does seem to be some pressure from below.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1yr ago
I always got the impression that the dissident right thinks of neoliberals as "socially liberal, economically conservative". Ergo, allowing corporations more latitude to exploit workers and push for stuff like LGBT, abortion, etc. because "they want the labour force completely atomised from traditional social relations and derive all its identity from its career and place in the firm". This is a very common line among right coded tankies. I suppose there's some truth to it, but I suspect the "real reason" why wokeism is pushed so hard is no single reason at all. There is no Machiavellian scheme behind any of this, just some people (especially from the urban middle class) with whom there is legitimate purchase of wokeness because they see it as the next wave of progressivism which has already been the dominant ideology for decades, companies and public figures that parrot whatever's the most fashionable in elite consensus, activist types who will themselves to believe in this, casuals who just about believe the first thing they see in the headlines, and dissidents who are frustrated with it all.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1yr ago
I take 0 issue with someone having different opinions and values. They can support abortion, LGBT, BLM, be militant atheists for all I care.
I do however draw the line when they publicly admit that they believe I'm the worst person ever for literally existing, that my race, culture, religion and society are the roots of all evil and oppression and comparable to Nazis. That's when it stops being an opinion, and turns into vile character assassination. My moral worth and that of everyone in my community is in the negatives, apparently. Unless said person is making some kind of a breakthrough in something significant, it would be very hard for me to look drudge past so much drek for some occasional entertainment.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1yr ago
Your points are convincing, alas, it doesn't matter if they are. Rowling is a TERF, and as per intersectionality worldview, she has to be every other reprehensible thing you can think of: a Nazi anti-Semitic bigot, a pro-slavery racist, yada yada. I think it was the Dr Drew episode with Ben Shapiro, Segun Oduolowu and Zoey Tur, apparently Ben would've been against the civil rights movement if he was alive at the time and the evidence of this was his supposed hatred for transgender people. BLM has to be pro-LGBT too in order to "fight intolerance". Feminism has to be pro both for the same. All rally against the evil white man and the white adjacent man to fight oppression. The success of Hogwarts Legacy might rile up many, but it is a "you lose even when you win" situation. That so many people like this horrendous, bigoted IP whose main series revolved around a Wizarding War against Wizard Nazis and this game that allows you to play as a transgender hero and whose lead designer was pressured to quit for what he'd said on his personal YouTube channel, would be cited as evidence that we have a long way to go in our noble fight against intolerance and hatred. They're all compromised, including infamously politically incorrect IPs like GTA and Saints Row, but the woke crowd shall continue to pretend that they're still bigoted and sexist and racist as the companies let them have mile after mile.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1yr ago
Society would be much better off if incels had those needs met in terms of productivity via enfranchisement, less culture warring and societal friction and that's before you get to basic human kindness and decency in helping and accepting the unloved.
I agree. It's like that "red pill manosphere alpha male when he gets an ounce of female attention" meme. Many of them aren't just unable to find a female partner, they're unable to make and maintain normal companionships with other males. It may be difficult for us to fathom, but I personally know a few, it's always the simple gestures that make their days, like wishing them on birthdays/Christmas/New Years, sending a text checking up on them when they're sick, asking how their job interview went, etc. Mundane things, but ones that don't exist in their lives because they aren't a part of anyone else's. They can disappear tomorrow and quite literally no one will notice, let alone care. They're basically like ghosts, they exist and at the same time, they don't exist. That's a pretty crippling thought, and tragic if true. And so to them, someone reaching out to them and giving them their time is affirmation that they aren't ghosts and that someone does give enough of a damn. The solution "sounds" simple enough, more empathy and less shaming. Instead, we confirm their worst paranoia about society and probably resuscitate any bad experiences that they may have from high school, the last social landscape they were in.
What dilemma does he face? He's walked back on his own free speech absolutist promises with American users, see Alex Jones, Ye and the leftist journalists he'd temporarily suspended. He cares about India insofar as it is an important revenue source. He's a businessman, doesn't care about Indian politics, has an axe to grind with American progressives and doesn't want to be blocked off from such a huge market. The Indian government has made it plenty clear multiple times that they don't take kindly to foreign criticisms over internal affairs, be it those farm bills/protests that led to the 2021 debacle with twitter or the BBC doc or the Canadian commentary on the recent crackdowns on separatists in Punjab. A line that Elon is more than willing to toe and doesn't believe he needs to answer for.
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