ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
Maybe it was the weather, but that night I found her very alluring.
User ID: 812
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
18hr ago
Your personal values and what the law permits don’t necessarily align, and laws naturally shift as social structures change. Feudal societies heavily discouraged sex before (or outside) marriage largely to guarantee paternity and stable households. Post-sexual revolution and a working female population, most of these risks are now ameliorated. That said, the thrust of my point is the specifc kind of rape trauma a female victim would go through doesn't match the facts you described, nor do most cases of female-teacher-fucks-male-student. And at 16, you could've probably easily overpowered her if she tried to force herself on you.
how you’re part of a conspiracy
Maybe I wasn't making my point clear. Yes, many incels do spend too much time inside their heads and spiral into neurosis and paranoia. But the visceral hatred I was describing from other similarly maladjusted groups (like the antinatalists and Ryan Gosling bros) usually kicks in long before that point, precisely when the mirror gets held up without the ideological coping mechanisms. Their "raw honesty" is that they're unhappy and insecure because of their low social/sexual status, not because the sky is falling and fascism is on the rise™, it's an unflattering mirror to the Ryan Goslings' and ANTIFAs' own lived experiences (the Gosling larpers are just reddit approved incels with a glorified martyr complex), that if their own lives looked like a John Hughes' movie, they wouldn't be in those spaces to begin with. They've probably silently felt at lease some of the things the incels speak of online, but don't feel comfortable to confront those feelings and question their socially approved priors.
Side note: I'd recommend checking out /r/DebateIncelz to really understand the incel perspective in a somewhat neutral and sane environment without the usual caricatures coming out of .is. The problem is these guys don't articulate their experiences without chimping out on unmoderated spaces, that doesn't make those experiences not true (from their pov at least).
Edited some sentences.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1d ago
Thanks for the rec. Yeah, I suspect a big part of why incels are so viscerally hated by other similarly maladjusted groups (transgenders, ANTIFA, /r/okbuddyliterallyme) is that they serve as an ugly, unfiltered mirror to their own insecurities and resentment over social/sexual rejection, but without dressing it up with pseudo-intellectual scaffolding or progressive moral language. Ironically, even when they larp as world-saving radicals online, they still submit to reddit leftist taboos for updoots (social acceptance). On the other hand, incels just say the quiet part out loud. That raw honesty makes them intolerable.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1d ago
IMO it's a straightforward projection of female vulnerability, the fear of being overpowered and exploited by a stronger man, onto male children, whom they imagine as equally helpless. Americans would jump out of their seats if they saw this German film where, an adult woman, stark naked, shared a scene with her then 12yo male co-star, even though the on-screen relationship between their respective characters was presented as an inherently unhealthy one.
FWIW I wouldn't be thrilled if a grown woman made sexual advances on my 15yo brother or son if I had one. Now I don't think the physical consequences of that relationship would have any pronounced difference if the boy in question was 14 as opposed to 16 (age of consent in my country), if he personally enjoyed it. But age of consent laws exist for a reason, there is still the moral quandary of blurring healthy boundaries at a critical stage of development.
Jumping off topic, I think @FtttG is hitting on something big here:
I don’t think the antinatalists, for the most part, are people who could have children if they wanted to, but are electing not to for moral reasons. I believe they are mostly profoundly mentally disturbed people with whom no one would want to have children, and who have erected a towering edifice of convoluted reasoning wherein this deficiency in fact makes them morally superior to the “breeders” in their vicinity. Their worldview is ultimately the product of sour grapes.
A very astute and widely applicable observation that can extend to any ideology that calls for radical upending of current societal arrangements. Its adherents don't actually want that, not really. They really just want to play the game the way the winners do. So naturally, they gravitate towards an arrangement where they're the winners. No incel would favour overhauling current dating market dynamics if he magically transformed to chad.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1d ago
I can respect that you have strong personal values around sex and relationships. But you're still describing a values violation and deep regret, not a clear physical assault. Feeling profoundly disgusted or used after a regretted encounter is real and common, but I highly doubt that you would've felt the degree of bodily violation, physical illness, and scathing hot showers to wash off her touch following that encounter, if you went through with it.
As a man, the closest analogue I can imagine to that level of visceral violation by a woman would be something like being pinned down by a morbidly obese landwhale with horrible breath, and having my dick forced to get hard inside her. This is precisely why most cultures throughout history — even highly patriarchal ones — have had no real concept of a female rapist. The evolutionary dynamics and physical consequences are simply not symmetrical.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
6d ago
I don't see the problem in the first comment. If you've been around online discourse long enough (let alone moderating), the writing mechanics of ideologically charged users become apparent to you, pointing that out a meta level pattern recognition is not a personal attack. And it's Darwin, that guy knew how to press your buttons, and just left after that comment. His last comment on his reddit account, as of me posting this was just 6 hours ago, so the man's peachy but still taking his sweet time getting to his queue.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
15d ago
That was a nice, succinct read however this one feels a bit incomplete (or could've been expanded on):
The ‘restoration’ discussed here is actually referring more to Origen’s belief that humans existed somehow outside the body before birth, and would be ‘restored’ to that state afterward. Not how most universalists use ‘restored’, to mean reconciled to God.
I will admit I'm not very familiar with Origen, but a cursory peep into his wikipedia says he explicitly rejected the doctrine of reincarnation. So what happens after a damned soul is restored to this pre-bodily state? Do they remain in that ghostly state forever, away from God's Kingdom and his saved children? If so, how is that better than Eternal Hellfire?
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
15d ago
If I did believe in God, I would not be capable of believing in a supposedly benevolent deity who judges that any mortal, no matter how awful they were in one short mortal lifetime, could possibly deserve to be tortured for all of eternity. Especially if that could be a punishment not just for being evil, but simply for choosing the wrong religion.
I'm not particularly well versed on eastern faiths myself (nor am I religious), but how would you feel about a syncretic belief system that adopts a Buddhist/Hinduist style karmic and reincarnation doctrine? Setting aside the inherent fantastical elements, highly specific doctrines and very arbitrary sin criterias, how plausible or attractive would you find a system in which a deity offers an arrangement like this: you rejected the deity (or refused to affirm belief in him) but otherwise lived a morally good life by ordinary standards, so you receive a period in a lesser heaven or favourable intermediate state, after which you are returned to the cycle of rebirth in this world?
PS: I'm aware that both Buddhism and Hinduism encompass a wide array of radically different sects, schools, and interpretations, and I'm not asking you if you're attracted to either, only how you'd feel about the karmic/rebirth arrangement if it was true.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
15d ago
They puport to have found a smoking gun that proves the NYT published a complete fabrication in order to libel the State of Israel
Just like pro-Palestinians purport the (admittedly questionable) Screams Without Words was a complete fabrication in order to libel the Palestinians? It is understandable that neither side is enthusiastic watching their respective ingroup's crimes making the headlines. Here we have an establishment newspaper that seriously ran a lengthy, outlandishly gruesome story, that you could in no way read as anything but sympathetic to the harrowing treatment of Palestinian prisoners and IDF overreach (to say the least), and refused to take it down. If this is Israeli hasbara, then the Jews get an F.
IMO the NYT's reporting is simply too establishment in tone, too willing to report Israeli justifications at all, too willing to doubt sources of Palestinian casualty figures, and not ready to abandon post-1967 norms of state legitimacy for one side only, which infuriates pro-Palestinians because they don't swallow the full activist catechism.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1mo ago
I don't find it creepy at all, this just reads like a redditor writing for the reddit leftist crowd.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1mo ago
if MLK were alive today, he'd be very much a SJ
Agreed, we can extend this to a host of other progressive thinkers and even creatives as well. See the modern-day genre re-readings of Ursula K. Le Guin, who was already ahead of her time and could be considered woke even today.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1mo ago
Progressives are as cowardly as everyone else.
Hence, an aura bonus. Assassination carries an implicit acknowledgment that the target was a genuine threat and needed to be offed. Slave morality loves martyrs.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1mo ago
Heads of the hydra and so on. Assassinations are aura bonuses for progressives. Woke will lose momentum when their leaders are serially disgraced and hit negative aura.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1mo ago
Also something something sex-havers (NOT incels) are statistically the biggest threats to women.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1mo ago
Your predecessors said the same about jerking off, or gay sex, or interracial relationships.
At least two of those things are within TheMotte overton window, and they're still human connections!
the LLM will at least not cheat on her and give her STIs.
Now where's the fun in that
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1mo ago
right-wing Christian
That descriptor doesn't capture a host of other takes that sit well outside the overton window. Out and out groypers pivot to bleeding heart feminism to stick it to the third worlders. Do you believe, keeping their priors in mind, they genuinely care about women's rights or gay rights? I find it difficult to square with people who proudly declare themselves physiognomy enjoyers, and wouldn't support a brown Christian in their government, to reserve so much empathy for brown Christian children, more than they enjoy throwing shit at the wall (read: Jews) to see what sticks.
Personally, I'd prefer honest antisemitism to cosplaying human rights doublespeak because I find virtue signaling universally annoying.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1mo ago
If you have been thrown out of 109 bars do bouncers have a collective delusion or is your behaviour lacking?
I hate to pull the "akchually" card but yes I know someone who gets kicked out of bars with uncanny regularity, with no real provocation every single time. It's odd, but sometimes your luck is just consistently fucking rotten.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1mo ago
The behaviour that's referred to here is constant, everyday, ambient exposure affecting people who aren't even directly engaging with the issue, like blocking roads and disrupting unrelated public spaces. In my country, Domino's pizza was barred from a major university event by student groups purely over their continued operations in Israel.
Do you think someone like Marjorie Taylor Greene and Theo Von are influenced by leftist media bubbles
I don't know about Theo Von, but do you believe the woman who called Muslim Democrats the Jihad Squad, and who has maintained for damn near a decade that Zionists are flooding Europe with immigrants to replace the native white population is sincere in her moral apprehensions about the Gaza blockade? We both know she wouldn't want Palestinians in her own country, so is it really about the plight of Palestinian kids or simply sticking the knife to the Jews?
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1mo ago
I supposed it comes down to where you care to expend your attention, but we can just as easily invert the litmus test at the people who uncritically circulate the hare brained conspiracies I mentioned. Are they more credible?
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1mo ago
Modern leftist anti-semitism is not historical antisemitism.
I agree with the larger point, but keep in mind "leftist anti-semitism" includes Muslim antisemitism too (meeting historical antisemitism criteria), which is given a more anodyne, anti-colonialist twist to be palatable to their white liberal peers.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1mo ago
My friend once said, "I get more liberal the farther away you are". Everyone's concerned about the Palestinians, but no one wants to save the Palestinians. Even less charitably, a good chunk of them are just circlejerking around the "current thing". Antisemitism may be losing its meaning, but so is Zionism. You have to believe that Epstein was Mossad's blackmail kingpin holding US elite by their predaphile balls and that Israel offed Charlie Kirk for... reasons, or you're a philosemitic goycuck. No matter your reservations with Israel's warmongering government and support for West Bank settlers.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1mo ago
What you describe is purely abstract and doesn't reflect real life dynamics though. The asymmetry is layered with differences in non-trivial physical risks (pregnancy and greater exposure to physical harm), developmental vulnerability, and reputational consequences borne by female students from both peers and family. The bodily stakes aren't nearly as equivalent for male students in analogous situations. If the adult female gets pregnant, she bears the physical, social and legal risks, not the adolescent. And peer perceptions are the inverse for young boys. Through porn and other media, teenage boys spend their developmental years admiring and fantasising sex with adult women above their own age bracket. So for better or for worse, sex with an adult woman is a status symbol for male students.
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1mo ago
those people are pedos
Look I don't disagree it's sleazy as fuck but "pedophiles" are attracted to prepubescent kids. Maybe you're right at least some of them might go younger if they could, but a 50yo man dating a 19yo girl is not an act of pedophilia.
Age of adulthood has always been arbitrary
I've seen tiktoks arguing we should raise the legal age from 18 to 21 or even 25 and see who gets mad. I'll put up my hand right away, I just turned 25 and I'd hate to just become legal when I'm like 5 years into my career.
Now yes, as you point out moral and lawful categories don't always align, and indeed the idea is that at some point you gotta take accountability for all your decisions, including bad ones.
I also suspect it's gendered, reactions to female teachers having sex with male students tend to be more intense among commentators (especially feminists) than the "victims" involved because the reverse is categorically harmful. But men who engaged in sexual activity with adult women as adolescents describe it more positively and report less trauma. Doesn't mean that it is healthy long term, but there are pronounced gendered differences in psychology and hormonal behaviours reflected in these surveys beyond just "he doesn't know he's a victim".
ZeStriderOfDunedain
Ze Strider
1mo ago
At minimum, you need to demonstrate a consistent and reproducible pattern showing engagement with online spaces as the causal driver of violent attacks, holding all other factors constant.
Tangentially, video game violence may have played a role in cases like Daniel Petric, but millions of people spend long hours gaming globally without exhibiting real world violence, so you have a much harder time arguing that any single factor in isolation drives such outcomes. And yes, I extend that logic to trans shooters as well.
As for the manosphere, Andrew Tate literally got streisand effected to fame. He had less than 4M followers on Twitter/X when he started making headlines around 2022. He's sitting at 11M now.
If we were to believe the narrative, that surge in visibility and consumption should be coupled by a corresponding uptick in violence against women, and that this uptick can be reasonably traced to his content. Instead, violent crime is trending down in both the US and UK.
The emotional harm of active, forceful penetration is not analogous to values based emotional injury from regretted but consensual sex, even if both can be painful. And that sounds like a strawman of my reasoning. Forcible rape causes harm through both physical violation and emotional trauma. But the physical component (the overpowering and loss of bodily autonomy through force) is not optional or purely values-dependent. Values matter. Emotions matter. But they don't make every negative feeling equivalent to violent assault.
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