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					joined 2022 September 05 11:53:36 UTC
				


				
					

					
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User ID: 541


					
					
					
				

			


					

						
					



		

	

 











			
			

			
			

			




	


		

			
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				Culture War Roundup for the week of November 27, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
No. Even if RFK is projected to win (downthread this is your interesting topic) and we have the unusual event of a third party President, IMO that’s much less interesting than the discussions just this week. Teen mental health, demographic change, birth rates, and education all have a substantive and demonstrable effect on our lives. Trump proved that the President doesn’t matter all that much for changing things that really do matter all that much. In fifty years it won’t matter much who was president (not to mention there’s close to zero we can do about changing the result). What will matter is whether all the teenagers are screwed in the head, whether China has global superiority due to technological dominance, whether people in your culture continue to exist, whether quality of life is better or worse…


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of November 27, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


warm, responsive, and rule-bound, disciplined parenting




Hot take: the characteristics of the optimal parenting style mirror the traditional relationship of God to humanity. A person who spends hours a week focusing on God’s relationship to himself is, practically speaking, understanding the optimal parenting strategy where he is on the receiving end. (Prayer can sometimes just be seeking for what the divine optimal parent would say). This translates into a general skill in being a parent. The reason there is a relationship between “very conservative” and mental health of children is that the very conservative have conserved their traditional understanding of deity as compassionate yet strict, punishing yet merciful, loving yet disciplining.


Cold take: kids with strict parents lie to interviewers on the phone about their parents.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Small-Scale Question Sunday for November 26, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


If the answer is that they are devout Muslims and Christians, then do we need to save them from their own irrationality by either somehow getting them to convert anyway




This is how Christians felt toward Jews for many centuries (forced conversion or expulsion) and it is widely considered to have been a Very Bad Thing. But also, this “irrational” belief is what enables them to exert their will to survive despite reduced quality of life. Can you imagine 21st century Americans behaving like the Palestinians if the Chinese decided to occupy their nation? I can’t. Their “irrational” faith along with its privilege of martyr status and expectation of post-life reward have actually resulted in a evolutionarily rational decision: fighting zero-sum against an arguably ethnic supremacist enemy. Religion has coincidentally allowed them to pursue their evolutionary motive with greater rationality.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Small-Scale Question Sunday for November 26, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Question for any war nerds: why are dummy drones and dummy vehicles not being used in Ukraine? Shouldn’t these be a feasible way of wasting enemy resources and determining their location?


Eg you dress up a shitty $500 plastic RC to look like a tank and you attach it with a $100 speaker to sound like a tank; enemy wastes a MANPAD and more importantly a hidden drone overhead can see where attack was launched from. Eg you create a larger / more visible drone with no payload on it and wait for enemy to fire at it.


I also don’t understand why “sound warfare” tactics aren’t being used. I saw a drone video from a few days ago where a tank shoots into a building a dozen times before leaving; 30min later Ukrainians pop out and retreat from their fortified position. The tank was ineffective at hitting them and inefficient at causing them to flee, but dropping a bunch of extremely loud screeching and beeping “speakers” above their position would be unbearable and force them to retreat. Annoying sounds were used in American torture programs for a reason.


Lastly is there any cost effective way to introduce a “Chinese stratosphere balloon” strategy? It takes expensive weapons to shoot down but you can fly nine dummies and one payload over Kiev and then just drop a bunch of small munitions, or no?


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Small-Scale Question Sunday for November 26, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Reading this book or watching the movie could be beneficial: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_Life_of_Walter_Mitty


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Small-Scale Question Sunday for November 26, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
These are the kinds of questions we need more of


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of November 13, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
It doesn’t make sense to compare human-to-human judgment and God-to-human judgment, which is where your moral objection fails. A human punishing another human’s mere wickedness with death would be hypocritical, because all humans have a proclivity to sin and do sin. But God is as greater to humans as human are to earthworms (Job 25:6). A better comparison would be that you run a prison system of truly evil convicts, all of which were sentenced to death but whom you’ve already saved out of mercy. You have given them rules to follow, as a kind of bail condition, and if they fail to just sincerely attempt follow them, their original sentence is reinstated. This comes close to capturing just how superior God is (definitionally), and how his Law/Son is abundantly merciful and his punishments just. So it’s not cruel. And Christianity solves any arbitrariness concern by introducing a maximally significant afterlife.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of November 20, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
This is non-sequitur and nonsensical. Ideologies are true or false completely independent of any random bad actors on random forums. Someone “doing something for your ideology” does not  negate an ideology, not even 0.0001% of its validity or lack thereof.




if we all counted his dishonesty as a demerit against his WN ideology




And what makes you think he isn’t anticipating this?




his motivation is to make it look good




So far he has only succeeded in annoying the user base, making them more reluctant to post  and engage in anything WN-related. If he were actually invested in promoting WN he would immediately stop posting and just upvote SS or something.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of November 20, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
If you’re genuinely not trolling (likelihood: 5%) then maybe reach out to the mods privately and see if you can verify your identity semi-anonymously (prove that your IP is real and non-VPN? Something like that)


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of November 20, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
“You were potentially deceived by a poster trying to manipulate the forum, therefore it was your ideology that deceived you” is an impressively silly thought.


I don’t know what’s going on with the OP poster. The world’s worst crypto- white supremacist? The opposite, attempting to get the topic banned? Someone doing “intelligence gathering” on users who agree with this or that? Whatever it is, it’s obviously annoying. Maybe mods should start using AI to check posting styles and ban the next alts.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Small-Scale Question Sunday for November 19, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I may have missed some lore. Is the gist that you think being airdropped into the Alaskan wilderness will make you better with girls? And that you’ve become so obsessed with the idea that you’ve created your own term (“hock”)? My takes are:


    

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    This comes off as sufficiently delusional to warrant a trip to a psychiatrist.
    

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    Being airdropped into the Alaskan wilderness will guarantee that you come back less socialized than before, meaning you will be worse at picking up social cues. You will have higher stress than before, meaning you will lose hair and your testosterone levels will plummet. You might develop a stress disorder on top of this. This will not help you with girls.
    

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    There are a number of eminently feasible ways to develop more confidence around women. If you want a dramatic flare you can pick up MMA or boxing, which will decrease stress longterm and increase your testosterone and feeling of competency.
    

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				Culture War Roundup for the week of November 20, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I think Christianity is optimal in the sense that the faithful become an optimal community (in the best variation of the religion). The community isn’t optimal because it is obedient or dogmatic, but because it’s prosocial and virtuous. This would allow it to maximize both positive emotion states and civilizational development. It’s true that modernity has posed unique problems to religions, but that’s not something that the authors of religions could really foresee.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of November 20, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Religions are not “equally good” and this is partly because they have different pursuits and points of emphasis. Religious practices involve focusing on and expanding specific elements of human cognition. The old Pagan practice of placating a flippant God or contractually offering your sacrifice according to the terms of your petition are not increasing “prosocial love for others”, which is what modern Westerners consider to be the chief Good (which grew out of Christianity). Those Pagan practices are instead increasing one’s aptitude for fulfilling promises — highly important, but not quite good. Certain Buddhist sects that promote mindfulness and dispassionate will increase a person’s attention and equanimity. But again, this isn’t sufficient to make a person good. Judaism’s focus on following hundreds of little rules and engaging in festivals that increase ethnic love will definitely create a tight-knit bloodline, but not necessarily a good community. (Judaism’s emphasis on analyzing and discussing texts, however, is definitely good, because it leads to logical adherent, yet I don’t think this is sufficient.)  Islam’s abundant emphasis on obedience and pleasures of the afterlife creates a lot of excellent and violent martyrs, but not a lot of little selfless loving martyrs in everyday affairs.


It’s important we don’t get bogged down in speculative theology when evaluating religion. For 90% of adherents, they are engaging in a particular practice with a few dozen stories and expectations. This is what decides the expansion of a religion and the morality of a society. Highbrow theology is interesting (I think it will find its completion in psychology) but it’s not actually that relevant for changing the behaviors of humans. For a religion to be good, it needs to make the behaviors of most of its adherents good. A religion that only makes its theologians good would be a very poor religion indeed.


I don’t think that Christianity is some God-ordained perfect religion — that would be superstitious — but I think it’s approximately the optimal religion, and all other close contenders would look a lot like it.




are religious symbols “objective”?




I see Religious Language as a hack that creates civilization. The hack works on our innate instincts, and it sublimates our instincts toward some intended behavior. For some given civilizational goal, there is probably one or a few symbols that are “optimized”, but I don’t think it’s the kind of thing where humanity is born altogether with ideal symbolism that they need to understand. One great symbol is “heaven above”. The clouds and the movements of the stars dictate weather and seasons, and thus crops and safety; it is immense; we are innately attracted to them; it is always above us. So, a celestial realm where Gods live always above us, always controlling affairs — this is an obvious choice for where God reside. This is better than the pagan’s mountains.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Small-Scale Question Sunday for November 19, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Got top 100 in rankings of CODM, a phone game


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Friday Fun Thread for November 17, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipping_Forecast


Why is a radio broadcast dedicated to the maritime conditions of the British Isles so soothing for British landlubbers as to constitute a sleep aid?


I think the answer goes back to primitive psychology. The sense of hearing is for surveying the environment for cues related to reward and threat. Somehow in man’s evolution, we transfigured our sense of hearing to the meanings of others via words. (Civilization followed suit, but in the beginning was the word.) Yet our desire to continually survey our environment for reward and threat remained. In a natural environment, there is never actually a moment of silence, and so humans do not find complete silence as comfortable as familiar sounds.


And so the Shipping Forecast is a great sublimation of our innate desire to survey the environment. The environment becomes the weather of the seas around your home. The familiar voice rattles off the threats and rewards around you in words, which makes the primitive man inside all of us feel safe. (Other auditory sleep aids are similar: rain on a roof tells us environmental detail; a child falling asleep to adult conversation; etc)


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of November 13, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
No one on the alt right / far right / whatever term we use now watches or cares about Destiny. Destiny has his own unique audience and a culture centered around debate, and some of them (they’re all teens I’d bet) will wind up being persuaded by a given speaker, but to say that online rightists share a space with Destiny is to misunderstand how it all works. Yeah, they might tune in to see Fuentes debate Destiny, just like an Andrew Tate fan will see him debate Piers Morgan, but they exist in entirely different social ecosystems. (Ask some of the far rightists here if they know anyone who watches Destiny. I don’t know for sure, but I’d bet they don’t.)




There’s a direct through line from the DSA through to Chapo Trap House, Cumtown and then Red Scare




The “break” is really just red scare, Chapo is firmly left and cumtown is firmly center left, none of these people would ever consider voting right or throwing themselves in with the right generally.




TrueAnon, GenZedong etc knows about figures like BAP and Moldbug and Sailer




This tells us nothing, even in contentious revolutionary France the members of the opposing side knew the primary thoughtspeople of the other side




containment zone




This containment zone is more influential on the public than whatever happens in Academia. You have the internet and you have Academia, and I’d say that academia is the containment zone whereas the internet is what has been changing opinions since ~2008. JBP the academic maybe influenced 500, JBP the viral internet guy influenced 5,000,000.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of November 13, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


part of the same general social grouping




How do you mean? The far left and far right follow completely different people and stories. They might occasionally pass each other in the comments of some “what color is this dress”-type post. The only time they come in contact with an opposing belief is if one of their own is making fun of a particularly bad take.




the specifics of the ideological program are less relevant. So of course you can transition easily between ‘far left’ and ‘far right’




I don’t think I have ever seen this happen to someone past the age of 18. The closest is maybe Richard Spencer? In his case I think he’s now an intelligence asset. The only transitions I think are common are from more radical positions to more tempered ones as a person gets older. The “Red Scare Podcast” transition is only rivaled in its novelty by the “Ben Garrison” transition.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				ISRAEL GAZA MEGATHREAD IV
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
When confronted with clear evidence that Israel lied about something, your response is that it’s depressing that people still distrust Israel. What kind of rhetorical strategy is that?




This is why IDF definitely did fire rockets at the Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital in Gaza" etc etc. And of course then pictures come out and ... onto the next story!




As the resident Al-Ahli Speculation Enjoyer this is funny to me, as I was warned by the mods about “single issue posting” when I provided two updates on the topic. The last major update was similar to the article above: the NYTimes and LeMonde came out with their conclusion that a major piece of evidence used by Israel was false, that the rocket came from a different direction than where Israel alleges. And that’s been the last major update because of a lack of evidence to discuss. Which is why Al-Shifa is important: if Israel is lying and is also proven culpable, then IMO it’s likely this is the case also for Al-Ahli. Maybe that is exactly why there are reporters on the grounds now at Al-Shifa.


It was the president of Israel who said they weren’t striking Al-Shifa, by the way. Not a “random mid-level bureaucrat”.


[On a side note, one of the camera video recordings obtained by the Times came from Saleh al-Jafarawi, who is a kind of Palestinian Sam Hyde. Maybe this is grounds for some people to doubt the findings.]


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of November 13, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
There’s a very curvy line from 4chan to the Twitter “alt right” to the richest man in the world’s ideology. Which is either going to be called frightening or inspiring depending on who is asked.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of November 13, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
It really seemed like an intentional kick to me. I never got into hockey (just a few months as a kid) but I spent years skateboarding, skiing, snowboarding, some recreational ice skating, surfing. You get a good intuition on how the body corrects its balance. He is pushing with his center of mass forward in a way that appears purposeful to me. The leg going that high simply would never occur with that forward level of mass. He had previously used his kick technique here: https://youtube.com/watch?v=1gFX1sxUv1Q , and was one of the most penalized players of the league.


I wonder how many people opining on the video spent long years as a child playing a balance-based sport. Because I would put my intuition at 90% or higher. But I could see how I wouldn’t be so sure if I lacked that experience, like how some people don’t know how to fall without damaging themselves — when you play certain sports you learn to fall well.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				ISRAEL GAZA MEGATHREAD IV
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
The Iranian Tehran Times released an alleged recording of the ADL freaking out about the generational divide in Israel support, as well as Iranian influence in anti-Israel advocacy groups. I do not recommend reading the article because it’s literally Iranian propaganda, but the audio recording is on their page here if you scroll down. Do you think this is legitimate or AI-generated? There’s nothing that struck me as obviously wrong with Greenblatt’s voice. It would be a weird thing to fake, because Iran shouldn’t want to promote the idea that they are behind Western anti-Israel advocacy.


If it’s legitimate, it’s insightful in four ways. The ADL does not believe that support for Israel is Left-Right but instead young-old. The ADL believes that some anti-Zionist organizations are taking their talking points from Iran (eg using the term “Zionist entities”). Iran has access to important meetings of ADL members. And lastly, the ADL has access to the inner circle memorandums of anti-Zionist groups.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				ISRAEL GAZA MEGATHREAD IV
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Doesn’t it bother you that you immediately changed your argument from “the Palestinians deserve to lose their territory because they failed to make an agreement”, to “the Palestinians deserve to lose their territory because Jews are special and there’s not many of them and Arabs suck?” It betrays the fact that your original argument wasn’t exactly sincere. Or was not at least your main argument.




98% of the region is Arab, always has been and always will be. Sympathy is therefore difficult




That’s a lot like saying “99% of the region is Slavic, therefore sympathy is difficult if Turks decided to conquer Odessa“. It doesn’t make sense as an argument because it ignores the diversity within the term “Arab” and the fact that you don’t suddenly get the right to land because the inhabitants are under the same broad ethnic umbrella. And it ignores that the holy land is particularly important for the whole Arab world.




the Jews have no interest in Arabia itself, nor in Persia or almost all of North Africa or Anatolia




The Jews have no interest in Iran? Have you turned on the news in the past decade? One of their overriding geopolitical interests of Israel is to destabilize Iran, just like they aimed and succeeded to influence American foreign policy toward destabilizing Iraq, Libya, and Syria. It turns out that placing Jews in the heartland of the Muslim world means that they are perpetually neurotic about powerful neighboring states. Which is a recipe for massive regional unrest. Jews have been kvetching about Iran for some time now, with the same WMD lie that they used to sell Iraq to America. Israel has no interest in Iran like America has no interest in Venezuela and Nicaragua.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of November 13, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
This is one of the reasons I consider Christianity the best religion. Men don’t need a civilizational exemplar who is also violent, horny, and acquisitive. That’s our default state as is. Our exemplar instead needs to be exaggerated in the other direction: compassionate and loving up to self-sacrifice, pure of heart, freely giving. So when men come together as a community to hoist one of their own up as an ideal, they see the exact ways in which they are deficient (per our nature) and the virtues that complex civilization requires to function. The crucifixion is literally the hoisting of a man up on a cross for this reason. “Behold, (the) Man.” Why would you want to extol a warrior? They already have their reward.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of November 13, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
The most serious variation of the question is how a rational person ought to balance reasoning and intuition. Themotte is on the far end of reasoning, and the ordinary American is now on the far end of intuition.


It might be surprising for someone to learn that the greatest chess players rely on intuition more than calculated reasoning, that they apply calculation with reservation and that they first obey their intuition to determine which possibilities they ought to calculate. Why is this? Well, they know from the results that this is the best course. But the underlying reason is that there is an infinite amount of ways to calculate in chess, and only a finite amount of time on the board, and only a small amount of cognitive energy you can spend in a day. Intuition, on the other hand, freely reveals itself without effort. It’s a kind of magical efficient reward algorithm baked into the human hardware that will unconsciously determine the most reasonable course of action with varying levels of probability. Intuition poses a serious problem for “strict rationalists” who believe that if we don’t know the reason why something works, we shouldn’t use it.


Okay, back to fucking animals. Singer  confines himself to a narrowly-defined analytic space to determine the moral permissibility of beastiality. This is a mistake, as there is more to the question than the sum total comfort/discomfort of the animal. A strict rationalist with messed up tendencies would now be compelled to rescue animals destined for slaughter and rape them. Intuitively, this is absolutely beastly. The natural intuition of man is that this is fucked up. But it follows from Singer’s argument. [fleshing it out: humans cannot be expected to perform difficult moral actions without reward, which is why we pay doctors handsomely and don’t expect everyone to help out orphans in their free time. If the only reason you would save an animal is to do some (horrific) action to it out of perverse joy, then according to Singer’s calculation, you should. But Singer is disproved per below.]


The replies in the comments are attempting to bring intuition back into the discussion: “Don't factory farm animals. Don't fuck animals. When are you publishing me?” “Call me crazy, but gonna go out on a limb and say there might actually be a third option for animals here.” The next step is to see why our intuition is so strong. The moderns in the replies might be loathe to hear it, but they intuitively know that human sexuality is designed for particular outlets and not others. The wrong outlet causes disgust and a general feeling of something not being right. A religious person would give a simple, oh, it insults God, and be done with it. The moderns would be too reluctant to say something like, humans shouldn’t do disgusting acts that conflict with their design, and deeply disgusting things should be banned. They are left obeying their intuition but unable to actually explain it.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				ISRAEL GAZA MEGATHREAD IV
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
But one of the reasons the Arabs fought Israel is because they predicted they would turn into an expansionist state and claim its ancestral borders. This is a damned if you, damned if you don’t. Israel is literally creating new colonies each year within the West Bank and (more egregiously) the Golan Heights, and its history is illustrative —




In 1976, former Israeli defense minister Moshe Dayan said Israel provoked more than 80% of the clashes with Syria in the run up to the 1967 war, although historians debate whether he was "giving an accurate account of the situation in 1967 or whether his version of what happened was colored by his disgrace after the 1973 Middle East war, when he was forced to resign as Defense Minister over the failure to anticipate the Arab attack."[89] The provocation was sending a tractor to plow in the demilitarized areas. The Syrians responded by firing at the tractors and shelling Israeli settlements.[90][91] Jan Mühren, a former UN observer in the area at the time, told a Dutch current affairs programme that Israel "provoked most border incidents as part of its strategy to annex more land".[92] UN officials blamed both Israel and Syria for destabilizing the borders




The argument sounds almost like, “why didn’t you let me take your land peacefully? Now that you defended it, you’ve forced me to take your lane!”


I also doubt anyone would make this argument if it were the Arabs destroying Israel militarily. Israelis would be in uproar about Arabs violating international law and taking rightful Jewish clay.