daguerrean
3mo ago
Mass riots over some ICE injustice. In the leadup to George Floyd you could tell the media was agitating for it with Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery, it took them about six months of sustained efforts to get the temperature high enough. The media has certainly been trying with ICE, but until somebody gets shot on camera I don’t think they’ll get much traction. They may pivot back to blacks if ICE isn’t working though
daguerrean
3mo ago
You know this has lead me to an important realization. If it came down to it, I would choose to be ruled by the wokest HR lady on Earth before this guy. As much as wokeness disgusts me it doesn’t really scare me, it doesn’t strike me as outright evil or insane. I’m switching teams as of now.
daguerrean
3mo ago
You, in fact, are not obligated. You can quit and live off welfare. You can live on the streets. You can find another job. You can, as the kids say, keep yourself safe, if no other options are open to you
All this applies equally to the dog. It can attack Piker and go out in a blaze of glory, mouth red with his blood. We can observe from its behavior it is not unduly burdened by this obligation. If he had to shock it every minute to maintain compliance then that would be evidence this was extremely burdensome for the dog. Your dog mind reading act does not impress me
daguerrean
3mo ago
I’m obligated to sit at my computer and code for 8 hours per day when working. Is my life net negative? I see no evidence this dog experiences its life as a net negative.
daguerrean
3mo ago
Ok, since many people are raising more or less identical objections I will summarize the basis of my views in response to my own comment so I don’t have to reply with the same to everyone.
I think the following two things are fundamentally reasonable and acceptable.
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I believe it is reasonable to demand a dog perform a job for you in exchange for food and shelter. I do not believe dogs are entitled to human servitude by virtue of being cute.
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I believe it is reasonable to use physical punishment on a dog even if it is not the most optimal or effective training method.
Obviously these things can be carried to extremes and become abusive. I judge by levels of pain generally accepted for things like spanking a child, which is roughly on par with a common shock collar. When judging a situation like this I look at it and ask, is there any evidence the dog is pervasively unwell? I don’t see it. Is he applying the punishment constantly, excessively or gratuitously? I don’t see it. Is the job asked of the dog fundamentally deranged or evil according to my values (such as sexual services)? No. Okay then, carry on
Well the proof is in the pudding. Is the dog able to stay in the designated area for the required time and only requires rare and mild punishment (as evidenced by this being the first time anyone has seen him shock his dog)? Then the observable evidence would seem to indicate this is not inordinately painful for his dog’s specific inclination and temperament. I agree that if he was shocking it every few minutes to maintain compliance then obviously he is either asking too much of the dog, or is unnecessarily cruel. But a shock that is only necessitated perhaps once a day seems to evince that the dog is not unduly burdened by compliance with its job
daguerrean
3mo ago
Of course the dog has no understanding of acting, but that’s irrelevant. The misery is not pointless, presumably it increases the entertainment of his stream (I have no idea, I’m just assuming this is his motivation). The dog is presumably disinclined to sit still for hours at a time, but so what? I’m disinclined to sit at my computer coding for hours but tough shit, that’s what my employer wants. A blind guide dog accompanying a student to class has to sit still for the duration of the class, tough shit. Dogs having jobs is perfectly normal and in the grand scheme of things neither this job nor his training method seem inordinately cruel. Historically perhaps a dog might be gored by a boar while forced to participate in hunts.
daguerrean
3mo ago
The animal did something wrong though, it strayed from the desired position necessary for the stream. I don’t see why “actor” is a less valid vocation for a dog than any of the other myriad tasks we have forced them to do through the years. Being forced to stay in a given location for a stream seems quite similar to dogs assigned to guard a certain area, which are often chained for the purpose, and this seems like a much more luxurious assignment than a junkyard.
daguerrean
3mo ago
So at worst he is guilty of using a less-than-optimal training technique. I view it as identical to spanking children. Perhaps there is a more optimal way of training a child, but people are under no moral obligation to be maximally optimal in everything they do. Obviously physically disciplining a child could be taken to the point of abuse, but a spanking is not in-and-of-itself abusive and does not require being the most optimal method
daguerrean
3mo ago
It is wrong to abuse a pack animal, but all physical punishment is not abuse and the same applies to humans. The relationship of owner to pet is closer to parent-child than me-UPS driver, and it is certainly widely (but not universally) accepted that spanking a child is acceptable.
daguerrean
3mo ago
Well humans have all sorts of cultural taboos around physical violence that clearly dogs have no comprehension of. In the absence of cultural taboos and laws I think for a big enough bonus many employees would prefer a short electric shock over missing out on a 50k bonus. I know I would.
daguerrean
3mo ago
Why is physically negative feedback taboo but other negative sensations are not? They are all just dolors, negative hedons, whatever you want to call them. I’m fairly confident that dogs might choose a small shock over, I don’t know, being refused access to a particular treat. In my mind if a dog would prefer it I struggle in understanding what makes it wrong other than the squeamishness and moral purity of the pet owner
daguerrean
3mo ago
Have you not encountered invisible fences? They are extremely common and widespread in my experiences and use shocks based on proximity to the fence
daguerrean
3mo ago
There is nothing wrong with using a shock collar. View the dog as a working animal, its job is essentially to perform as an actor contributing to his streams. In exchange it receives food, shelter and so forth. It seems like a fair deal for the dog, I see nothing wrong with this.
Pet owners online are some of the most deranged, toxic people I have ever encountered. They seem to view dogs and cats as our masters, that we must deliver them lavish accommodations and expect nothing in return. Suffice it to say I find this unreasonable. If a human is expected to have a job, so too can a dog.
daguerrean
3mo ago
TheMotte is weirdly averse to admitting the Trump’s administration is often deliberately maximally inflammatory and absolutely does engage in “liberal tears” style antagonism. Yes, I understand that the media will always portray conservatives as the villain no matter what you do (Nicholas Sandman, Binders full of women, etc) but that doesn’t mean you have no agency in being more or less provocative. In many cases it may make no difference in your public perception due to media manipulation, but we shouldn’t ignore that Trump is openly, deliberately inflammatory
daguerrean
3mo ago
He has been transparently trolling across about a dozen comments over hours in flagrant violation of site discussion rules. Users have been asking him pointed questions clearly and politely and he has been deliberately obtuse and made no effort to discuss aside from low-effort snide dismissals
daguerrean
3mo ago
…no? Prohibition was totally legitimate, attacking random police officers during prohibition would’ve been very wrong too.
daguerrean
3mo ago
You are purely baiting at this point
daguerrean
3mo ago
He is just playing dumb and pretending to not understand the question to avoid answering it. I’m not sure why, but I doubt repeating it will get anything more meaningful out of him.
daguerrean
3mo ago
What was illegitimate about the Fugitive Slave Act other than the flagrant and duplicitous disregard for the law by free states?
daguerrean
3mo ago
Disagree. Look at the various identity groups ________ for Harris. I see: Black Men, South Asian Men, Latino Men, Native Men and AANHPI Men. Literally only whites are given an alternative word other than “men”. IMO “dudes” is infantilizing, it evokes frat idiocy, stoners etc. Every other group is entitled to the pride of thinking of themselves as men, white men alone are denied it. It’s essentially like black men in the south 100 years ago being referred to as “boy” regardless of age
daguerrean
3mo ago
But as a straight white male with a job, I occasionally wonder what exactly Team Blue could ever do to entice me to vote for them in a national election (short of entirely abandoning 75%+ of their policies).
I’ve often wondered this myself and I’m not sure I’ve ever come up with a good answer. I wonder what other Motte users would say for this question
daguerrean
3mo ago
The slightest glimpse into real violence leaves a lasting negative taste in one's mouth (unless you're a psychopath). That's why well adjusted men don't make violent threats easily.
I think it is most likely those that have engaged in violence are most likely to make threats and follow through to engage in more violence, I’m basically talking about the low IQ criminal underclass. I don’t think experiencing violence turns them into prudent philosophers on the subject. And of course I’m as effete and faggy as they come, but am horrified by the prospect of political violence in any direction.
daguerrean
3mo ago
They will hate you because you tell them the truth. Is this and the recent Kirk reactions an escalation by the Democrats in that it goes further than anything I can name from Republicans? Yes. But that’s how these endless tit-for-tat escalations work. Each new unprecedented devilry becomes justifications for a new hitherto unprecedented norm violation by the other side, and back and forth.
These new escalations are in fact escalations, and should be recognized and denounced as such, but we shouldn’t use them to excuse further norm violations by our side and we should acknowledge our side’s role in the escalation chain
I think most the responses here are taking “Current Thing” to mean something like “biggest issue”, but I disagree. To me the Current Thing is what normie women put in their instagram bio. Palestine, Ukraine, BLM, those were current things. The AI bubble deflating will simply never be the current thing no matter how earthshattering it is
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