theincompetencetheorist
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User ID: 1270
theincompetencetheorist
1yr ago
You are annoyed at the rhetoric of my attempt of being succinct. So let me expand on that. Yes they "cancelled" actions of a group of people that own and operate a language model that was trained on existing rap lyrics. My statement was reduction on that. The thing that I'm trying to convey here is that the discussion with the ethics around input and output AI models in general is very shallow. The discussions revolve around harm caused by unpredictable output which have no actual consequence other than making someone feel bad over a generated content. Image or lyric...
The ethics discussion should be deeper than social panics du jour. It shouldn't be ethical for example to use machine learning algorithms to nudge behavior of people. e.g. presenting alcohol ads to people that has a signal in their online behavior that they are prone to become alcoholics. The other example which I saw recently on a friends youtube, ads for investment scams when he searches for how to invest in stocks(since he most likely don't have requisite knowledge to sniff out scams). Those AI applications have the potential to ruin someones life as opposed to n-word by algorithm or violent nightmare fuel from an AI painter.
I looked into the youtube comments of FN Mekas music videos. There I found complaints of "inauthenticity" as in it wasn't very good. Which is not a surprise. The complaints highlighted in media is "robot racism" not that it sucks as rap. https://nypost.com/2022/08/24/capitol-records-severs-ties-with-virtual-rapper-fn-meka-after-outcry/
theincompetencetheorist
1yr ago
Yes and what is the difference between an AI and CD recording? Predictability? Determinism? Am I allowed as a non-black operate a CD-player with rap album in it? To sample it and create a new piece of art?
All these questions because some people decided to equate the copy with the original. AI just mimics reality but it isn’t reality.
theincompetencetheorist
1yr ago
What happens if the Spotify algorithm recommends and blasts a song with "Nigga Nigga Nigga" next to some wokes? Is that racist? Do I have an argument that "the algorithm" did it?
I could guess that if a spotify recommendation played "Gary Barts Ntu Troop - Uhuru Sasa" and "Gil Scott Heron - The revolution will not be televised" it would be deemed as appropriation.
theincompetencetheorist
1yr ago
As a long time observer and rarely commenting(different username) on Hacker News. I just see that the 'populist' moved on to the next 'populist' areas of focus since the sentiment changed on the severity pandemic and slightly more scattered. I saw a strong pro-censorship stance on the KiwiFarms panic and related sentiment on the whole nature.com new social justice flavored editorial policy https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32595083
theincompetencetheorist
1yr ago
So if you were banned for unknown reason that wasn't in the public rules then congratulations, you have found out more of the secret rules. Or you are running afoul with one of the rules constantly because none of the mods are telling you what you are doing wrong, because they are supposed to be secret.
Reddit has managed to neuter the discussions in subs like KotakuInAction where it was a reliable place to find stuff around topics like coordinated journalistic efforts of pushing narratives. It was KiA raison d'etre that has devolved into "oh god, they gender- and/or race-swapped this character in franchise X". The one simple trick that did that was that they have secret rules on that the submods aren't allow to tell anyone. One of those rules are "indentity invalidation" and the solution is that KiA employ without telling exactly what is forbidden is banning trans discussions alltogether. It resulted in that when KiwiFarms discussion needed to be moderated away because KiwiFarms made fun of trans people and the removal of KF of cloudflare is a campaign by a trans person. Of course the shitposters on KiA are going to try to "invalidate" Keffals "identity" and risk to the existence of the whole subreddit.
I just removed my 16 year old reddit account. I removed all the posts and comments that I've written over the years before doing it and before I went and deleted without hesitation. This I didn't do lightly because I've invested in some of personality into that account. The reason I did it was three things in a short period of time. I saw thing that was removed by reddit admins with the appropriate marker left behind, a canary removed that stated that reddit admins have been in contact with the submoderators and also a so called modsummit where a subreddit mod wasn't invited to. Great more secret rules to push the narrative....
theincompetencetheorist
1yr ago
The extremes of the political spectrum are equally out of touch with reality. It is QAnon vs White Patriarchy conspiracies at the fringes endlessly triggering themselves to their idea of the enemy. And those who don't ascribe to these descriptions of reality in the center get to be onlookers and increasingly harder to find places to discuss what they perceive to be actual reality and move the ball forward. The biggest contribution to my sanity in most cases when I hear conspiracy like theories is Hanlon's Razor, "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.". It is just look a couple years back to see the handling of the pandemic and know that the bumbling fools that rule us couldn't conspire their way out of a wet paper bag. Of course conspiracies could exists but it is a extraordinary claim that require equally extraordinary evidence. So what does that say about the future of motte? Nothing if the place gets taken over by extremist descriptions of reality the place is doomed, we will have to try to stay sane.
theincompetencetheorist
1yr ago
Yes the white patriarchy conspiracy theory is more mainstream. It is the prevailing conspiracy that rules currently in the western world. But it is still a conspiracy theory, it hasn't any more claim on being a true reflection of reality than QAnon. A conspiracy theory doesn't become less of a conspiracy theory when more people believe it.
theincompetencetheorist
1yr ago
It is only the extremes that have the belief of big systems with delibirate coordination to surpress the truth. Those closer to the center it myths and half-truths that previal but not the full blown conspiracy world view that everything evil is deliberate machinations by group of people.
theincompetencetheorist
1yr ago
I didn’t have any better expression for conspiracy theory on the political left than white patriarchy. Since it can be construed as a straw man does it mean that there is no qanon equivalent on the left? Because in the recent case with Shannon Brandt running over a teenager just reeks pizzagate levels of insanity.
I use fringe in terms of a network where conspiracies exists outside main hubs of “knowledge” so to speak. On top of that I tried to take two of the fringe clusters and put them on a political spectrum on the extremes. Following another branch of discussion I came to realize that my example that I used for the left sparked some discussion. Trying to find a better example but I’m unsure what would be a better representation for qanon on the left(your suggestion on blue anon is good).
theincompetencetheorist
1yr ago
That might be the problem in that case that we don't know enough of the lefts conspiracies to be sure where their batshit insane are. Reading things like https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/marcuse/works/1969/essay-liberation.htm I'm sure that they are out there. Just not as public.
The extremes on the political left and right political spectrum has a end goal of subjugating the individual to benefit of collective/state/nation. That goal has a tendency to warp peoples perception on what drives the world and sometimes it ends up with false beliefs about groups of individuals running things behind the scenes. Conspiracy theories can arise and be perpetuated without this political dichotomy and if one side has had their false beliefs thrust out in the mainstream. It doesn't mean that aren't false or conspiracy theories. Most of mainstream Soviet had a belief in Lysenkoism it didn't make it less fringe out of established science or a conspiracy theory that the scientist opposing it are puppets of the west.
theincompetencetheorist
1yr ago
Well I have to out myself as a Swede then. Yes, the situation is dire and nobody is equipped to deal with the problem because everyone is talking that somehow the identity of the perpetrators is a factor. Somehow the problem is being framed by either this is phenomena that is because they are immigrants and can't integrate in the society so we should send them back where they come from (Sweden Democrats). The left is explaining everything with that society is the blame that they can't be integrated because systemic racism against immigrants. The leftists are running around the schools teaching the kids about the 'pyramid of discrimination and violence'. https://socialsciences.exeter.ac.uk/media/universityofexeter/collegeofsocialsciencesandinternationalstudies/research/interventioninitiative/resources/PyramidDiscriminationViolence.pdf They are teaching kids at risk it is because of microaggression people are getting shot.
The worst part is that the fight against gun violence is so fucking political that when the police show up in an interview and uses the words "clan based networks" for describing the family based organized crime that is running rampant, he gets so much shit for the wording he used instead of having politicians going like "you mean that this is like the mafia?". Because that is exactly what is happening and the politics is blaming it that the violence is somehow linked that they are immigrants have more melanin in their complexion or a different religion.
theincompetencetheorist
1yr ago
The Police themselves know how to fight it, but it is the politicization of the police that is causing problems. Political interest on describing the problem like you did with "pre-modern" isn't always accurate. There is organized crime from former Yugoslavian countries, there are organized crime related to Turkish families, family networks from Lebanon(that was fairly modern before sectarian civil war started) are also still active.
theincompetencetheorist
1yr ago
Many of the unsolved deadly shootings are committed to avenge other unsolved deadly shootings, and everyone involved are immigrants.
A case can go unsolved if it is not proven. They have an idea of who the shooter is and why, so they have the network but if it is not proven beyond reasonable doubt they don't go to court with it and remains 'unsolved' in the books even if they have a good suspect and motive. Mostly because of homegrown "Omerta" as you put it.
The police is pressured from above to not investigate deadly shootings too much because it'd put immigrants in a bad light.
I'm with southkraut on this do you have any reference to this. Because that would need to be fixed.
theincompetencetheorist
1yr ago
But I disagree that the capitalist’s goal is to destroy identities.
Rightfully so the destruction of identities is a Marxist project.
To quote https://europeanconservative.com/reviews/the-great-awakening-vs-the-great-reset/
In 1960, Leo Strauss lectured on Marx at the University of Chicago. https://wslamp70.s3.amazonaws.com/leostrauss/s3fs-public/pdf/transcript/Marx-1960.pdf He stated the following argument. “If the division of labor is rooted ultimately in the bisexuality of man [i.e., our division into male and female sexes]…and the division of labor is to be overcome, let’s get rid of the bisexuality.” In other words, Strauss saw that the implication of Marxist egalitarianism was overcoming the sexual difference between man and woman as the source of the division of labor and therefore inequality. The class laughed at the preposterous notion. “Don’t laugh,” Strauss replied, “I mean, it is silly but it is a very serious problem… Marx’s position describes itself as humanism. How can there be a humanism if there is no relevant essential difference between men and brutes, and therefore if there is no relevant essence of man? No humanism without a fixed nature of man which may undergo any changes but which retains its identity within the change.”
theincompetencetheorist
1yr ago
The way eradication of identity has manifested itself in capitalism is through ESG. It inserts the neomarxist ideas in the profit maximization function. So true they don’t exclude each other, but the eradication of identity does not emerge from capitalist principles.
theincompetencetheorist
1yr ago
ESG is the vehicle which propagates ideas good or bad by having the externalities of those ideas go in decision making for corporations. One of those bad ideas is the eradication of gender identity. Much of the basis of ideas of eradication of gender is actual academic scholarship by the likes of Judit Butler influenced by postmodernist thinkers like Althusser who are all out Marxists, so Leo Strauss in the 1960s observed the logical end of the train of thought. Now I'm not about to read a bunch of Butlers shitty prose and read other postmodern thinkers to have definite proof that Leo Strauss was right, it has to be one of my articles of faith. And if you don't believe it, so be it!
theincompetencetheorist
1yr ago
I answered netstack and I might as well give you slightly different text. ESG is just a Trojan Horse, it is the vehicle that delivers good and bad ideas but it doesn't care about the ideas. So if a society is heading in a certain direction with laws or even opinions it tries to anticipate that in to making the highest possible profit.
So the comment earlier is that eradication of gender identity end goal Marxism as observed by Leo Strauss in 1960s. And if you look at the "gender studies" today with the likes of Judit Butler and others you find heavy influences by postmodern thinkers who most of them are Marxists thinkers. The specific example is that Butler was influenced by Althusser(a french marxist philosopher), but proving that to someone else would require me to read way more postmodern shit that I have the time or energy for. So I'm just going to assume that Leo Strauss did a good job of thinking the thought to its logical end and I'm taking the trail of crumbs to Butler/Althussers as circumstantial evidence that it was correct. Then you don't have to take my word for it. You can go and read it yourself and I'm ready to be disproved if you have the time and energy for it.
Also, how is 'marxism / leftism erases identity' meaningful at all? I could just as well say 'neo-marxism creates identities - gay, lesbian, black, oppressed, minority, disabled, feminist'. This is actually a common claim, remember "identity politics"?
That is a question that is pondered on New Discources podcast, James Lindsay did a commentary reading of 'An Essay on Liberation' by Marcuse that touched on the end game of it. I don't think I can do fairness to the argument in this comment.
theincompetencetheorist
1yr ago
Yes and if you read "INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY AND ITS FUTURE" by the UNABOMBER you'll move to a cabin in the woods sending off bombs to Meta, Alphabet and Twitter.
But on a more serious note, no there is no Le Epic Handshake, but we have bad ideas that deny reality permeating our societal structures and we need to tell the truth more to combat them.
theincompetencetheorist
1yr ago
No it meant that a justice system needs to be free from political influences, but due to bad leftist political ideas that has been introduced into the police like the criminals are victims of their socio-economic status(mostly through leadership by people like Dan Eliasson, who got the ignoble mention in Stupidity Paradox of destroying the Swedish Police organizational culture). This thinking is pervasive in the leadership of the police. So taking it from the threadstart "improved economic and social conditions generally does not reduce crime." is a disproving that criminals are victims socio-economic status. And most police knows that criminals are not somehow victims of structure or systems in place, but funds are being diverted from actual policing to projects that are crime-prevention on flawed ideas. So shooting are investigated by underfunded and understaffed departments that know full well that it is organized crime fighting over illegal business dealings. Knowing full well that these are "rational economic actors" in a segregated part of society. And I might as well described Italian Mafia in New York with that sentence so it doesn't really matter where the criminals come from... it is a function of not being direct part of society you live in and having the illegal ventures being profitable enough. Both of the ends of the political spectrum are obsessed with the identity of criminals which is not helping.
theincompetencetheorist
1yr ago
you're not "fighting subversion", you've already lost, and need to stop getting mad at random, small demonstrations of that loss and ineffectively voting and posting about it and actually understand the loss
I'm not mad. I post and discuss and throw in slightly provocative statements to increase my understanding of issues at hand. The thing that I really want to understand is that how the ideas from the current cultural center of the western world(US) is influencing and distorting the discussions in Sweden where I live. The Motte is the place to test ideas. Maybe I have a bad idea but I'm allowed to test it?
I have no idea what this means, precise language really is useful. If you mean 'eradication of gender identity is the end goal of marxism' ... I'd expect it to be explicitly a stateless, classless society for the many - the poor and tired and beaten down given life anew, wants satisfied, labor used for the laborers, not the exploiters. While communists were generally 'progressive' on gender issues, to call that 'the end goal' of marxism is just wrong.
How do you eradicate class to create classless society? What is class? How do we denote class? If you ever answer like the poststructuralist marxist jammed through that people denote their class through their identity then you eradicate class by allowing anyone becoming what identity they want to become any class they want, and class loses its meaning because identity lacks meaning if you can change it. It is the most succinct way I can put forward the argument.
theincompetencetheorist
1yr ago
It takes a Le Epic Handshake for the kind of enforcement of this particular set of bad ideas, that we see today.
I'm trying to stay true to my username and avoid the conspiracy theory and call it incompetence. The people perpetuating the ideas don't know the origin and the future of the ideas. So if there is an agreement one of the agreeing parties don't know what they agreed to.
theincompetencetheorist
1yr ago
I am naturally a conspiratorial minded person, and yet no possible conspiracy theory could account for the mass mindlessness of modern academic "science."
Well there is no conspiracy there. It is just emergent behaviour of the money allocated for science has been taken over by greed and ideology. There is a long tradition spinning science communication to spread doubt. Tobacco companies pioneered it in modern massmedia with sowing doubt to the absolute scientific fact that they are killing their own customers. They wanted to communicate "alternative facts" that their products caused lung cancer. But the phenomena damages perception on what is science in the public eye because it benefitted their greed. That miseducation on science and scientific continues in the media even today. Somehow an avocado that travelled half way around the world on a fossil fueled transport is better for the climate than me eating a piece of meat that has grown less than a mile away.
There is a replication crisis going on also. That is also a function of allocation and greed. Researchers apply for grants for some research but there is nothing in the system that awards negative outcomes of research. So researchers have now an incentive to tweak, massage and fudge numbers to have positive outcomes on their research, because the moment they don't prove their hypothesis their funds dry up almost instantly.
But there is huge component bad ideas being inserted in that funding process too. The scariest thing that I heard of was an astrophycisist needing to show how it relates to DEI and gettings his grant denied because it wasn't furthering the 'cause'. Which is just plain incompetence.
Well yes corporations just want to cover their asses from criticism, but the worst is that the criticism is so powerful that the discussion ends up shallow. I'm so annoyed that we had a cancellation of a language model that produced rap lyrics. FN Meka had a record contract which was later torn up because it was a "appropriator" using words reserved for someone with "lived experiences". It was just reported on and everyone glossed it over and forgot about. I'm like what did just happen? They cancelled a pile of math... There are slightly more deeper philosophical problems with the way it was cancelled. It cuts directly into postmodernism and its issues with treating the inauthentic the same as the authentic. Because at the end of the day the language model is just a mirror of the language used by those with the "lived experiences" and should be understood as such. https://youtube.com/watch?v=vYmfnfljvnM
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