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(I'm new, so I'm not sure if this is Culture War.)
Does anyone have any modern dating advice?
I'm interested in finding out what are the "real" rules that people operate under when it comes to dating, which might be different from the rules they ought to have or the rules they claim to have or the rules that they believe that they have (but subconsciously they use different rules). And of course the word "people" is very broad and presumably various subgroups operate in different ways, so I'd be happy for clarification on that point too. (And then of course individuals differ from the norms of the subgroups they belong to). Ideally I'd like to see some objective evidence, but personal experiences/impressions still count for something.
I identify with the difficulties in Scott's classic posts "Untitled" and "Radicalizing the Romanceless". Generally I'm paranoid about approaching women, because I feel like maybe they think I'm a creep and they're just too polite to say so. My biggest concern isn't that they dislike me per se; it's that maybe I've hurt the woman without realizing it. I'm very sensitive about that.
I've done dating sites and speed dating but I can't seem to find any connections. I should note that I have low self-esteem, so rejection is hard on me, which in turn makes it difficult to put myself out there. (Here's a question: How much time per week does the average single straight guy spend on dating sites etc., assuming he's actively looking for a date?)
I'm not a misogynistic incel, but whenever I talk about my dating woes a good portion of people feel the need to tell me "Don't be an incel!" when I haven't said or done anything remotely misogynistic. I figure the Motte is probably a good place to find people who understand my perspective.
I've been looking for dating advice recently, but everything seems contradictory. You're supposed to treat all people equally regardless of gender (which is great!), but at the same time you're supposed to conform to gender stereotypes and you should expect that most women will do the same. People tell me it sucks and it's not fair, but I'm the man and that means I have to initiate contact and get rejected a lot. They also tell me to be persistent but in the same breath they tell me not to be too persistent and it's not clear where to draw the line.
They tell me to be authentic but they also tell me to "fake it till you make it" and act like I'm a cool guy who dates people all the time. They tell me to express my feelings but they also tell me that "women can smell fear" so I should act confident even if I don't feel confident. They tell me to be honest but I've also had a (female) therapist suggest that I should tell some white lies to make myself more attractive. This woman gave a TED talk about her wonderful relationship with her husband (who sadly passed away) and she admits that the relationship began with lies: He falsely claimed to be a Fullbright Scholar to get her attention. Months later she found out the truth, but she was only angry for a short time. Ultimately, his lie made their whole relationship possible!
People tell me that women like it when you express interest in them, but also they think it's creepy. People tell me I must never express interest in a girl at her place of work, but the only relationship I had in the last 10 years began with that exact scenario, and the girl was flattered! (We eventually broke up, and since then I've also approached a few female coworkers at my own workplace, without success.) People tell me that if I show interest in a girl early on then I'm "too easy" and there's no "intrigue", so the appropriate thing is to give little hints about my feelings so she can pursue me. (In which case, apparently I'm taking the female role and she's taking the male role? I'm not offended by that; I'm just confused.)
People say that they met the love of their life on a dating app, but they also say that dating apps are trash and nobody likes them. (But even though everybody hates dating apps, apparently nobody can think of anything better to do.) People tell me it's ok to wear t-shits with the name of my favorite show or whatever (it displays my personality), but also I should never do that and the only way to be attractive is to wear solid colors with the occasional stripe.
One commenter on the Motte wrote "running a 'playing hard to get' game on a woman seems suboptimal. If you are looking for someone with whom you are authentically drawn to/compatible with, why set up these hoops or create a culture of deception within the relationship?", but in the next breath that same person wrote "it is also a risk to be overly eager. It's unattractive". But if I'm very attracted and I act like I'm only mildly attracted, doesn't that create a culture of deception within the relationship??
Long story short, I'm lost.
(And it surely doesn't help that I've got a long history of mental illness and isolation and thus I missed out on a lot of opportunities for social learning.)
I am actually bi, but in practice it's rare for a guy to get my attention, so I'm mostly concerned about how to approach women.
"Radicalizing" was written in 2014, and the advice at the bottom leads me to essays from 2001. It occurs to me that this might be woefully out of date.
Does anyone have any modern advice for me?
The problem is quite frankly there is no perfect formula for asking out a girl. Every girl is different after all. What would flatter one girl would get another to want to call the cops. I can share my experience and what's worked with me though.
First, you should identify what you want and what you're willing to do. Think about whether you want a hook up or whether it'd leave you disgusted with yourself. Whether you're willing to be 50 and single or if you'd happily marry a sub-optimal partner as long as they shared your most important values. You might be wrong about guessing what you really want until you try, but it's better than going in totally blind. In my opinion it's a good thing to go on dates even with women you're not super attracted to, because the cost of one evening and paying for dinner is small compared the experience gained at socializing and the potential opportunity to unexpectedly connect.
The next step is to get on the big dating apps. Tinder, Bumble, and Hinge, and maybe a more niche one like Christian Mingle if you fit the demographic. Make a profile with nice pictures and a bio. I've read the advice "Be unique! Stand out with something silly!" but in my own personal experience making my profile as inoffensive but flattering as possible works best. Like every profile, in my experience it does not actually lower your elo, and takes much less time and energy than trying to determine whether you're attracted to someone who 99% will not match you anyway. When messaging first, comment on something in their profile or pictures. Expect to carry the conversation for the first bit. Ask for their social media at the first good opportunity, or as a casual hail mary if the convo is dying. Ask them to meet up for a movie or dinner or whatever you like to do at the next good opportunity. Don't bother playing games/hard to get. Don't necessarily respond the second they do if they're spacing out their messages, being that available can make people go "oh I kinda want to keep talking to him but I don't want a whole conversation right now, so I best not message because he's going to respond immediately". Waiting 15 minutes to 1 hour is fine. If they ghost you or are really dragging out their messages(24 hours+ between messages) they are not interested and you can stop wasting time on them. Even if they say they're interested, they are not actually.
That approach has gotten me a few dates and less wasted energy, ultimately no one I really liked, but still a big step up from where I was before learning all that.
If you're willing to work out at the gym and get sexy, that's an even bigger advantage, but personally I've always found that difficult.
You can see how Loss Aversion might lead me to avoid talking to women at all. =(
First I need to find someone who's willing to go on a date with me.
Does this mean I should just click "like" on hundreds of profiles? (Here I was being respectful and actually reading each profile and thinking about it first.)
What social media things are most popular these days? (I've heard tell that Facebook is dying and I'm behind the times.)
Lower your standards until your main concern is that she's not a danger to herself or others. Don't go out with that type unless you are okay with being in jail or the hospital. Then go on a lot of dates. See if you can build your social skills. Maybe you will find an unexpected connection.
You were asked to drop this. You didn't. 3-day ban.
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