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What if our fundamentals are exactly backwards?
New to The Motte, looking for constructive, critical discussion.
Here's an example of what I mean by a "fundamental":
Every economic system that has seemed credible to most people since the dawn of civilization has revolved around the legal establishment and safeguarding of property through the concept of ownership.
But what is ownership? I have my own ideas, but I asked ChatGPT and was surprised that it pretty much hit the nail on the head: the definitional characteristic of ownership is the legal right to deprive others.
This has been such a consistently universal view that very few people question it. Even fewer have thought through a cogent alternative. Most people go slack-jawed at the suggestion that an alternative is possible.
Here's something from years back, before I'd zeroed in on the perverse nature of ownership:
Anyone want to brainstorm a viable alternative to "ownership"?
/images/17459352527399495.webp
Only if you've stopped stealing from other people.
If ownership is deprivation of others, then that deprivation is theft. After all, to deprive is to deny someone the possession or use of something. If this is supposed to be an immoral characteristic ('paranoid,' 'not sharing,' 'psychopathy), then the moral state is for it to not be deprived. The immoral deprivation of personal or even public goods is understood to be theft.
However, you are posting here. On the internet. A medium that requires a computer of some sort that could be not-deprived to someone else. Moreover, you repeatedly responded to others. This entails further use of time depriving the device to others. It also implies a surplus of time, and thus material resources you are depriving others of, that enable the hobby rather than sharing like a non-paranoid should. These resources are deprived from benefiting other possible beneficiaries and potential users by virtue (or sin) of your use. Your use and expected ability to use is demonstrating a de facto, even if not de jure, ownership.
It's generally understood that it is fair to judge people by their own standards, even if it's not fair to do so by your own. So be it. A priest who declares any who disagrees with their message is damned to hell will be a damned priest by their own hypocrisies. A revolutionary who declares it an act of cowardliness to not participate in a protest is a coward for not participating. You are someone who deprives others by exercising ownership and mutually exclusive use of limited resources.
Why should anyone brainstorm alternative ownership with a thief in the middle of a robbery?
LOL, Strawman City here, looks like -- and in Strawman City, everything you say is true by definition. Great! The only problem is that nothing that happens in Strawman City affects anyone but you, cuz you're the only one there. Sorry, just too many baseless assumptions and leaps of illogic for me to engage much. No, physical possession is not theft. No, physical possession does not entail deprivation. No, "paranoid", "not sharing", and "psychopathy" have zip-all to do with morality. No, I'm not engaging in a hobby. Before trying to construct a polemical trap, make sure you've got facts to work with. But speaking of ironies and hypocrisies, what about the fact that you know squat about me but pretend to know?
Wait, what? Then how are you defining the word "deprivation"? Surely, if I am using an object, I am not allowing others to use the object at the same time, i.e. I am depriving them of the ability to use the object.
You need to think it through more carefully. I have a nice little USB-powered fan that I use in the afternoons here in central Mexico. Am I depriving you of that fan? Do you right here and now consider yourself deprived? If you have something I don't want, have you deprived me by making clear you won't let me near it?
There are 3 very different things at play here: 1) actual deprivation; 2) potential deprivation; and 3) the actual right to deprive potentially everyone else in the world of your property. Conflate them at your peril, lol.
I've been talking exclusively about #3, and only #3.
Actual deprivation requires things: 1) a deprivable; 2) a desire to possess on the part of a non-owner; 3) the owners exercise of their deprivation right.
Not all a person owns is a deprivable. A desirable you own can only be deprivable if you have the wherewithal to actually deprive others of it. Otherwise, ownership is legal right that you're incapable of exercising, so it's practically impotent. Companies trying to enforce copyrights against fair use know exactly what I'm talking about.
Merely having the legal right to deprive doesn't actually deprive anyone. An owner has that right, but might offer their property for free public use. Lots of restaurants have created menu items specifically to offer to people who have no means to pay.
Rights are, by nature and definition, purely retroactive. They have no prevention potential. Unless you actively prevent or resist interlopers, your ownership/right to deprive does diddly to keep your property safe. The only meaningful effect your right has on anyone is on people who respect your right -- which, guess what, means they're not the ones you need to prevent/protect against. Rights are 100% justificatory. Their only practical use is to justify actions that an owners takes in protection of property. The actions taken are the only preventative. (Where's a cop when you need one, lol?)
Hopefully that helps.
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