MayorofOysterville
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User ID: 3800
MayorofOysterville
22hr ago
That's the exact reason I said the Western Allies, meaning America, England France and not "the Allies." My entire point was that the war in the West was fought largely based on civilized European norms and yes bombing cities is part of that. Everyone in World War II and World War I did it. The war in the East was a racial war of extermination between two totalitarians nightmare states. Both of which destroyed entire peoples. Yes the Germans were able to field huge number of locals desperate to fight against the Soviets. And they were welcomed in a lot places in the Western Soviet union. Until the locals realized the German plan was not to restore private property but keep them on their collective farms and starve them to feed their armies. A lot of groups made choices between the Nazis and the Soviets and most got squeezed and ground into paste no matter what side they chose.
No I don't need the Holocaust for a World War II narrative. Germany and Japan both declared war on America after having started half a dozen wars of naked aggression and conquest between them. Fighting them would be totally justified without the Holocaust why wouldn't it be？ Germany and Japan were aggressive expansionist enemies of America and the West. Indeed the entire war was fought without the Holocaust being a central aspect of war propaganda because the unprovoked attack on Pearl Harbor. Your verging on being one of those Tankies who lifts up Stalin because he fought the Nazis. The Nazis fought the Soviets sure but they were also a totalitarian expansionist state and they only fought the Soviets after subjugating all of Western Europe and invading many neutral countries. They also didn't fight the Soviets for altruistic reasons but to steal and settle their land and alienated a huge number of the Soviet population with their brutality.
MayorofOysterville
22hr ago
Yeah, that's actually kind of my point, that this whole fucking sensational story relies entirely on Soviet investigators and records. Do you think that's a reliable basis for confidence in this narrative of millions of Jews being gassed inside shower rooms?
Why would the Soviets fake something that goes against their own narrative? Anyway I think it's a reliable basis for arguing that the Germans killed a lot of Jews I don't personally claim to be able to prove the method but it seems extremely obvious they did. We are going a bit round and round do you think there were Jews in the Pale of settlement? Because the exact number doesn't matter. Why don't know the exact number of Dzungars before and after nor Armenians. but there were Jews there and now there aren't so where did they go? The pre-Soviet Imperial records show a large Jewish population the post Soviet Russian Federation census shows almost none, the same with pre and post Communist Poland. You need zero communist records to prove anything if you don't want. You keep talking about Soviet investigators we don't need investigators to know places like Warsaw and Kiev had huge Jewish populations and now don't
Again it's not just quibbling about numbers there were whole Jewish districts in these cities and now there aren't. There were whole Yiddish speaking farming villages of which zero exist today. The Germans created a special unit to fight partisans and then declared Jews partisans. It's not rocket science where they could have gone. There's plenty of witness testimony in Eastern Europe of their activities. Many of which incredibly problematic to Western narratives like the Baltic populations eagerly participating. You keep going on and on about shower rooms. I don't claim to be able to prove shower rooms (though I admit I do buy it) I'm confident the Germans killed the Jews and as you say without it, it creates a hole. But we should at least agree the Germans targeted Jews before we discuss method and I probably can't prove the gas chamber beyond a reasonable doubt for you. I think I can prove the Germans shot a lot of Jews in Eastern Europe. Notably because they created whole units to do it and we have a decent amount of evidence. Such as the Germans declaring all Jews partisans.
Yes the Soviet did Katyn the Germans did a bunch of their own massacres both the Germans and the Soviets wanted to elminate Poland that's what the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was about.
It was a racial war, even the Allies treated it as that. That is how we have the Holocaust Narrative to begin with. Racial warfare, and the gas chamber narrative is a figment of racial warfare.
The Western Allies and the Germans fought the war in a much more civilized manner. Compare how German POWs were treated by the Western Allies versus the Soviets or how the Germans deliberately issued orders suspending the laws of war and conduct on the Eastern front. The Germans did not view the Western Allies as racially inferior people's to be colonized in the way they viewed Slavs. The conduct of both the Allies and Axis was extremely different on the Western versus Eastern fronts.
MayorofOysterville
23hr ago
So lets say everything you said is correct the gas chambers never existed the camps were just labor camps and the Soviets created the death camp narrative as a psyop. Would you describe the systematic murder of three million Jews as the holocaust not happening? I wouldn't and I don't think most people would. I think an argument following that would be something like the, "camp narrative" in incorrect and caused inflated number but the holocaust still happened it just involved Jews being rounded up and shot" That seems to follow from those beliefs a lot better.
The Einsatzgruppen were real, their purpose was anti-partisan measures.
This is very convenient given that the Germans considered all Jews in the Soviet Union to be partisans. So yes their purpose was anti-partisan measures which under German classifications of the time would include eliminating Jews as all Jews were considered partisans.
I've already explained that differentiating census data across years is only a theoretical approximation of mortality due to measurement error. And in the case of estimates of Jewish population, it seems the errors were in opposite directions pre-war and post-war, which is highly convenient for the narrative they rely on for their global status.
But the issue is there are no Jews left. There was a whole Yiddish speaking culture in the Pale that is just gone your quibbling about exact number but the point is how ever many there were and we have records outside of the census one showing a culture here for hundreds of years they aren't there anymore. If you say elsewhere in the Soviet Union Soviet records don't show that and you can go hunt in the former Soviet Union all you want you won't find them. And given Soviet official policy was to downplay the specific targeting of Jews there was no incentive to fake that anyway.
The Germans loudly and often declared the war in the East a racial war and one of ethnic cleansing and conflict. Given that such wars almost always involve genocide and mass killing. And given the Germans were willing to implement things like murder the Polish intelligentsia to destroy them as a nation, implement the hunger plan, suspend the laws of war in the Soviet Union and plan out stuff like general plan Ost. Which explicitly involved settlement and ethnic cleansing. Why would you expect them to spare the Jews especially because the Jews of the Pale just vanished after the Germans swept over them.
MayorofOysterville
1d ago
As someone who was very against the starting this war and still wishes it never happened. This seems like a good idea to get some benefit. Boots on the ground seizing the Uranium and physically destroying the enrichment facilities would actually provide some benefit to the war and make Iran think twice about re-starting their nuclear program.
The mortality in Poland was especially high but we would expect that to be more evenly distributed. The pre war population of Jews in Poland was 10%. The Postwar population was virtually none and the population of in Poland is nill now. This was not according to estimated numbers but the official Polish census So where did they go? All the Jews in Warsaw just packed up and moved to the Soviet Union? The Soviet Union is not a black box you can't just through millions of people there. They kept detailed records like the totalitarian state they were and also didn't really allow assimilation in the sense that everyone had their nationality listed on their identity cards and the Soviets viewed Judaism as a nationality. There were a many totally assimilated Soviet Jews but their ID cards still said Jewish. This is why there are now pork shops in Israel because these totally assimilated Jews were still able to prove their Jewishness. Now that might make your hypothesis seem correct except the Soviet Union is also short on Jews
Vilnius and Kiev and the entire pale also have missing Jews. Because the places historically had quite a lot The numbers for this are from the Russian census in 1897 of just Yiddish speakers. Again census not an estimation. Since the 1990s we have access to the full Soviet census records and these people are not there. Nor is there evidence of a huge influx from Poland and the Soviets did keep records of this. Even totally assimilated Jews who didn't practice and eat pork were still considered Jews because the Soviet viewed them as race/nationality. These records show all kinds of other Soviet atrocities based on nationality namely Stalin's deportations they aren't sanitized. The Soviet archives were hugely open during the 90s.
As well then we get to the issue of motive. Did you know that the Soviets intensely disliked the Western holocaust narrative because they though it focused to much on Jews? They thought it elevated Jews too much when the German invasion had caused great suffering and death for all the Soviet people's the holocaust as such as a singular action was not really taught in the Soviet Union. But rather integrated into the whole narrative of the great Patriotic War. Why would the Soviets go the effort to fabricate a narrative they hate.
But if you are saying they were all gassed in shower rooms at a precisely known location, then we can review the evidence for that claim and find the weight of the evidence does not remotely justify confidence in those sensational and extremely unusual claims.
You know this isn't the mainstream narrative right? Which hold that more than half of the Jews killed died from overwork or more likely massacred in a muddy field in Eastern Europe by the Einsatzgruppen. Even if you proved that Auschwitz was entirely a myth you'd still half to deal with the missing Jews and the state sanctioned death squads. Which how do you deal with them do you think the Einsatzgruppen were a real thing and if so what were there purpose?
MayorofOysterville
1d ago
10% of Poles were Jewish before the war. A large number of the cities that were in the Pale of settlement were majority or plurality Jewish. An the there were many Jewish farming villages in the pale as well. Where did they all go?
MayorofOysterville
1d ago
I'm surprised actually arrrr slash movies generally seemed to love the movie from what I saw.
MayorofOysterville
1d ago
I feel like it has worked pretty well, if you compare the West Bank and Gaza there's obviously a huge difference.
MayorofOysterville
3d ago
The USSR actually tried incredibly hard to create logical boundaries in Central Asia. They did not deliberately leave minorities places. But Soviet ethnographers did not always access groups accurately because of ignorance on their part and lack of national consciousness on the populations part. Or more commonly because these groups were all mixed together and it was impossible to draw clear lines. Regardless if you read the commission on nationalities (headed by one Joseph Stalin) they were not intentionally leaving minorities anywhere but rather a clean national delineation was just impossible. The jigsaw boundaries and enclaves and exclaves were an attempt to gerrymander clear nations where there were none.
MayorofOysterville
3d ago
You can call a tail a leg, but that don't make it so.
The Jewish towns in the West Bank are totally integrated into Israel and function just like Israeli towns inside the "official" borders do.
MayorofOysterville
3d ago
People in the West Bank should have equal rights. Israel should either annex it and give everyone citizenship or withdraw. Creating an interlocking jigsaw of Jewish and Arab towns with the Jewish ones fully integrated into Israel and the Arab ones surrounded little Bantustans is not sustainable or stable.
MayorofOysterville
3d ago
The Israelis in the West Bank have full rights and their towns are fully integrated with Israel.
MayorofOysterville
3d ago
They did actually implement the first part and nominally give them their own countries in four cases. The West Bank is less of a country than the independent Bantustans were all imports and exports are controlled by Israel. Palestinians only rule disconnected towns surrounded by the Israeli military and settlements.
MayorofOysterville
3d ago
The Bantustans weren't part of South Africa either. Though I think the West Bank is the better example. Israeli Arabs aren't apartheided you are right. But Jewish and Arab settlements are treated very differently in the West Bank. As well that the expansion of settlements has created an intertwined society with very different rights depending on race and religion. The actions of settling the West Bank are making a Palestinian state impossible.
MayorofOysterville
4d ago
China also has good relations with, Israel and the Gulf Arabs, who are not really against Israel these days. They want to make money not pick sides in Middle Eastern disputes.
MayorofOysterville
4d ago
That's why I said in the PLO 90s. Hamas throws a wrench in things, but it could still work many West Bank towns are under full Palestinian control, the PLO are not as willing to die as Hamas.
MayorofOysterville
4d ago
You are totally right, but as a small country clinging to the coast highly integrated into the global economy they'll have a much harder time going it alone then the Soviets or Iranians. It doesn't seem very stable to me. But it also seems no Islamic power can push them out and also they have nukes. So who knows how it ends.
MayorofOysterville
4d ago
I really think this is just your lurid power fantasy. Conservative religious Westerners expect both men and women to remain chaste until marriage. So why don't you insist on that? Modern Western dating norms don't punish fuckboys or sluts so why don't you just push chastity for everyone? (if you don't just hate women that is). There are plenty of religious denominations in America that insist on chastity for all parties prior to marriage as a norm. And this is how it has historically been in Western countries. The conservative religious insist on chastity as a norm for all parties while the more secular or part inclined have a period of serial monogamy and/or courting. If you read Chaucer or Shakespeare I think you'll find that Anglo society has never treated women like chattel and plenty of people "had some fun" before settling down.
Now I will say that this period has expanded beyond reason and the endless dating roulette is something of a social ill. But why resort to something so draconian (unless you just really really want to). Northern European society never had anything like this and still had marriage or family formation. The Romans did but classical morality is totally alien from our own and it wasn't just this. I wonder would you accept your father having the power of life and death over you in exchange for the power of life and death over your wife? It doesn't matter though, because this way of thinking is just totally alien to Christendom, enlightenment philosophy and modern morality so it's a total nonstarter.
For marriage to work, a man needs to be able to kill his wife when he finds her in bed with another man. Instead, she files for divorce and gets rewarded with cash and prizes.
Believe it or not most men are not constantly terrified about being cucked. But couldn't you just allow the cheated on party to get all the assets in a divorce? Isn't that a more sensible solution to the problem you describe then reducing women to chattel. I feel like you could get a lot of people on board with that, so why not go for that? And why gender it? Why not say adulterers should get the death penalty? Also also your whole framing is wrong a women is not "rewarded with cash and prizes." she is rewarded with her half of the estate that's the whole point of marriage most people end up poorer after a divorce because they're wealth has been split in two. And in this day and age it's not hard to avoid that simply marry a women with a career or gasp one who makes more money than you. Then you get to divorce rape her when she catches you in bed with some Thot! If she doesn't poison your wine first!
I'm being a little tongue in cheek here but I just don't think it's that hard to find a faithful wife. Women want commitment and like casual sex less then men. Most of my social circle is composed of practical minded middle class people who are married and just don't have this soap opera drama you are describing. The don't need some draconian social order to force their wives to stay with them, and indeed why would want that? Why would you want a wife who is only staying with you under pain of ruination and imprisonment? Some of my friends parents got divorced when I was a kid but it wasn't the end of the world and most have now re-married. But divorce is down and it's not that hard to game the stats. Both on first marriage, both college educated, married after 27, same race, same religion, gets your starting odds down to 15%, Though I suspect (though lack the data) that believing women should have the status of chattel raises it significantly.
As well as presumably wanting your wife to be a virgin? If you were a member of a conservative religious denomination you could find one easily and if not why on earth would a secular Western women remain and virgin waiting for you?
If you execute or castrate ninety-nine fuckboys, but miss fuckboy number one hundred, he gets to spoil a hundred nice girls.
The vast vast majority of Western guys do not think a woman is "spoiled" because she has had sex before. Western secular dating norms assume both parties have has several relationships before marriage. In our serious monogamous society, women see their sexual value go down for being virgins too long. A lot of guys after university will be more reluctant to date virgins and her girlfriends will view her as a bit of a loser or or a prude. Now some women will wait out of a sense of romance or anxiety about sex but there is a negative pressure on it in our society and the way you are thinking about this is just totally alien to modern western secular dating culture, and ignorant of it.
I think that these posts by you and Jim are really just a lurid fantasy. Do really think it's common for upper class women to sleep with poor refugees? But more I think you just want these solutions. I don't think you are actually proposing this to solve the problems you want to solve because there are much easier actually politically feasible ways to address what you are saying. And since wives have never been chattel in Northern European society I think you just really really want to own women who have no rights. I think this is just shady thinking to get what you want. You can go to Afghanistan and have that. To which you and Jim will no doubt respond， “But they are uncivilized barbarians!"... yes well exactly.
Why would it be absurd to have to move to a place to date the women there?
Anyway you don't need to do all that, most foreigners in China in a relationship with a Chinese woman don't speak Chinese. I know a few actually where the woman learned English to be with her foreign bf/husband. Anyway there are plenty of eligible young women who speak English. And even more late 20s women who want to get married quick. A ten year tourist visa plus frequent visit or downloading a Chinese dating app would work. No foreigners pay money to buy an apartment in China either as a condition of getting married unless they are; A planning to live there forever or B rubes.
Actually if you go to China as a Western guy and can't get a date you're the most hopeless guy imaginable. Dating in China for white guys is the easiest thing in the world and Chinese women grade on a huge curve for autism.
MayorofOysterville
4d ago
Israel could work as an ethnostate. But they'd have to give up the Palestinian areas they control. If they'd turned over the West Bank and Gaza to the PLO in the 1990s they'd likely be much more of a stable normal country today.
MayorofOysterville
4d ago
If you created a tunnel connecting the two with a rail line and highway it could work.
MayorofOysterville
4d ago
I think this is a function of extreme casualty averseness. If they had occupied Gaza and put a different government in power they could have avoided inspiring the hatred that they did and installed a government other then Hamas. Instead they leveled Gaza from the air killed more civilians then the Russians have in several years of war and Hamas is still in power.
MayorofOysterville
4d ago
Affluent liberals who attend such things want all sorts of people punished many of them weaker. And while they aren't Soviet sympathizers the chain of transmission of their support for Palestine comes from a 70s milieu who were Soviet sympathizers. Also affluent liberals are pretty divided about Israel-Palestine. It's their children who are hardcore anti-Israel.
MayorofOysterville
4d ago
I had no idea maritime insurance was such a monopolistic cartel.
Because doing so would trigger a war like this and get the entire leadership killed. Now that the war has happened and the entire leadership killed there's no cost to doing it that's already been paid.
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