Eleocharis
11hr ago
Why are you asking me a question that is both readily answered by reading the linked article and completely irrelevant to whether CECOT can be characterized as a torture prison?
Eleocharis
20hr ago
Sanctuary cities have been the subject of various legal challenges which have generally determined that cities and states are not compelled to enforce or assist with federal immigration law.
Again, it would be completely reasonable for the Republicans, who control the legislative and executive branches and have a favourable Supreme Court, to change how the asylum system works. They aren't doing that!
Eleocharis
21hr ago
Ah yes, those bleeding heart liberals worrying about things like due process and the rule of law and, uh, preventing torture.
I guess don't be surprised that people actually believe in these things and are willing to put their lives on the line for them. Sure seems like it would be a lot better to, say, propose a bill to change laws around asylum etc., but for some reason those who are currently in power don't seem interested in doing that.
Eleocharis
1d ago
That's fair, probably shouldn't be in that list. It's clearly not being done in good faith though when they are not investigating the ice agents involved.
Eleocharis
1d ago
If you are told to do something by a judge, and you don't do it, in what sense have you not ignored that judge?
That's fair to some extent. Maybe it's kind of pedantic but I do think there is a difference between an order to "leave the country" vs. "if you do not leave the country you can be deported", and I'm not sure which form the removal order would have taken.
Eleocharis
1d ago
Restraining them from what?
From, for example, deporting people directly to a foreign torture prison. I fully believe the decision-makers would still be doing things like that if not for negative press attention.
None of the things I initially listed can be characterised as mistakes. Sure, agents can make bad decisions in the heat of the moment, agents can be acting on bad information, whatever. But deporting people to CECOT is a policy, not a mistake. Somebody made the conscious decision to detain Ozturk over an op ed, and to continue to detain her long after it was clear she had done nothing wrong. High-ranking officials made the decision to refer to Good as a terrorist and Pretti as an assassin. Someone decided that 42 days was an appropriate training period for new ICE agents. Somebody made it policy that agents shouldn't wear uniforms, but should wear masks. Somebody decided that they were going to investigate Good's widow.
Those are the things that need to be owned up to to convince me that the administration wants to maintain the rule of law, human rights and so on. As far as I can tell they don't actually think those things are more important than mass deportation, so they will of course never be able to credibly convince me that they do.
Eleocharis
1d ago
I don't know why we accept asylum seekers at all
The United States accepts asylum seekers because of laws such as the Refugee Act of 1980, which was passed into law by legitimately elected democratic representatives.
And the faster we can dismantle this absurd system and start deporting the people abusing it the better.
Perhaps you should petition your elected representatives to change the laws to do so. Until then, the United States has offered people a legal process to be allowed to live in a country, and if they are taking part in that process exactly how they are supposed to, it is obviously not legitimate or moral to suddenly deport them to a torture prison because you don't like what the laws say.
Eleocharis
1d ago
That inmates there report things such as:
"Four guards grabbed me. And they beat me until I bled, to the point of agony. They knocked our faces against the wall; that was when they broke one of my teeth." https://www.cbsnews.com/news/men-on-beatings-in-salvadoran-prison-after-deportation-from-us-60-minutes-transcript/
Eleocharis
1d ago
If ICE owned up to mistakes, apologized, and indicated that they would try to do better, I would agree with you. But I see them doing exactly the opposite, do you disagree?
I believe that negative press attention is currently the only thing actually restraining them.
Eleocharis
1d ago
To be clear, what happened is that a lawyer, against instructions, admitted that it was an error, and was fired for it. I do not believe that the official position of the administration has ever been to admit that error, although I could be wrong.
Eleocharis
1d ago
so now ICE can't deport illegal immigrants back to El Salvador because Bukele will put some in jail?
That is not what happened. Venezuelans, some of whom had not been accused of any crime and were in the middle of asylum cases, were deported to El Salvador with the understanding that they would be sent to CECOT, with the US paying El Salvador for this service. By all accounts "torture prison" is a perfectly reasonable way to describe CECOT, "concentration camp" is another word one could use and only be exaggerating a little. As far as I can tell, no official has apologized for this or outlined what steps will be taken to prevent something equally horrifying from happening again.
I'm not sure how the other two things I listed could be considered fake news either.
Call me a bleeding heart all you like, but this administration cannot be trusted to treat deportees humanely, and so, well I would generally agree that sanctuary city policies go too far, loosening them right now is a terrible idea.
Eleocharis
1d ago
ICE (et al.) do not currently have any credibility that they would act moderately and reasonably. Have they apologised or even admitted error for sending innocent people to a foreign torture prison? Have they apologised for detaining someone for writing a milquetoast op ed? Have they apologised for calling people their agents have shot assassins and terrorists based on zero evidence?
Until they express that they have not been acting moderately, and express a desire to change, I don't buy that the protesters are doing anything but revealing abuses that were already happening. Yeah, these specific clashes with protesters wouldn't be happening. But I don't believe that they have any desire or intention to prevent equally egregious actions from happening when the cameras aren't on.
Eleocharis
1d ago
I don't really understand what happened for the last 26 years as to why she was never deported, but she hasn't ignored anything, she was checking in with ICE regularly as asked.
Under existing law, she cannot be detained, there does not appear to be any dispute on this fact. The administration is perfectly capable of proposing changes to the law to change this, or to change whatever system has resulted in her staying for 26 years. But they haven't even tried!
Eleocharis
12d ago
Re: your edit in your post above, that is a response to BLM riots, not COVID. I think it's bad but it clearly was not aimed at the right.
Waco and Ruby ridge were also targeted at specific people, identified in advance, who were believed to be breaking the law.
Meanwhile ICE is cruising around Minneapolis looking for minorities. They have arrested several native americans and apparently are not willing to let them go unless ICE is given jurisdiction on reservation land: https://nativenewsonline.net/sovereignty/oglala-sioux-tribe-rejects-ice-conditions-for-information-on-detained-members They are arresting people who are in the middle of court proceedings to determine their status. And they are arresting people who are protesting without obstructing.
Eleocharis
12d ago
Neither "ICE agents" nor "Jan 6ers" are comparable to "residents of Minneapolis". The equivalent would be, say, sending the FBI into random red towns and arresting anyone with Confederate symbology on suspicion of hate speech.
Eleocharis
13d ago
What? At the moment he smashes the window, the other agents are actively pointing her to drive forwards.
Eleocharis
13d ago
Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean, but I don't believe that any Democratic leadership is promising or suggesting to send federal agents in masks and military gear against their political enemies.
Eleocharis
13d ago
Is obstruction a protestor's right?
Yes, obstruction for political purposes is something you have a right to in my opinion. That doesn't mean you can't be arrested for obstruction. But they should not be pushed in front of a bus for obstruction when there is a clear alternative.
As for the second part, fair enough, that is indeed not a general principle I actually hold, I'm just judging things based on the object-level morality. It fundamentally just seems clear to me that the behavior of agents on the ground and of federal leadership is just as much about intimidating political opponents as it is about accomplishing their stated goals (I mean the president has said this more or less explicitly).
Eleocharis
13d ago
Pulling someone out of the driver's seat of a car requires smashing their passenger side window?
How exactly does one deescalate against people wanting escalation
If someone is not being violent, you make sure they are doing something that warrants arrest, you tell them they are under arrest or otherwise make it clear they are being arrested, and you give them a chance to comply before assaulting them. But that is clearly not happening in many cases. Here's a couple more that could very easily have also resulted in someone dying:
https://old.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1q9xczh/ice_pushes_man_into_oncoming_traffic/ Shoving someone into traffic is clearly not the appropriate response here.
https://old.reddit.com/r/ICE_Watch/comments/1qc21p8/ice_abducted_a_woman_trying_to_get_to_a_doctors/ Hard to know exactly what's happening here, obviously the headline on that post is overblown. But it sure seems to me like agents are telling her to get out of her car and to keep driving at the same time. Most blatant though is at 43 seconds where an agent smashes her passenger side window for no reason. Exactly how is this supposed to help things?
https://old.reddit.com/r/ICE_Watch/comments/1qavmee/ice_in_minneapolis_ramming_civilian_cars_through Again, an overblown headline, and I'll admit that there's no proof this is actually ICE although it seems likely. But the correct response to someone blocking you is to ask them to move, and to arrest them if they won't, not to push their car out of the way.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=QZTxiBQOnZ4 Agent attacks someone for no reason.
I don't doubt that it is difficult for ICE et al. to accomplish their mission while respecting the rights of protestors, and only acting against those who genuinely step over the line. I guess I would just say "too bad". There are many different levers in politics, law, and society, and if you don't control enough of them, you don't get to accomplish your goals. If you don't have buy-in from the local populace, police, or political system, it's a feature of the system that that makes things difficult, not a bug.
The response of an authoritarian to this problem is to send in the jackboots. That is genuinely what this feels like to me.
Eleocharis
14d ago
Just as an example, why at 43 seconds into this video does an agent smash the passenger window of the car? What possible reason is there for that?https://old.reddit.com/r/ICE_Watch/comments/1qc21p8/ice_abducted_a_woman_trying_to_get_to_a_doctors/
Why does this agent push a man nearly in front of a bus? Is that what you would consider reasonable protocol to use to arrest someone who is doing nothing but standing in front of your car? Surely the first step would be to tell them they are being arrested? https://old.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1q9xczh/ice_pushes_man_into_oncoming_traffic/
Eleocharis
14d ago
If you expect perfection in every single encounter, you are not living in reality.
Not sure I understand what you're saying. Of course this situation required a confluence of factors to end how it did. But I believe one of those factors is that ICE agents are regularly escalating situations that could be deescalated (many such cases in videos coming out of Minneapolis). I assume this is some combination of top-down direction, poor training, and internal culture. It would be better if this wasn't the case.
Eleocharis
17d ago
Look, I am well aware that from your perspective her actions leading up to this video are illegitimate, and thus she ultimately bears responsibility for what happened. I obviously disagree but I am not trying to convince you otherwise, not are you likely going to convince me otherwise.
But what I am talking about is the few seconds we see in this video where it goes from angry to violent, and it seems pretty clear to me that that happened when the agent started swearing at her and trying to open her car door. I think this behaviour is counter-productive for any reasonable goal, including that of trying to apprehend illegal immigrants, and indicates someone that does not have the appropriate temperament to be in law enforcement.
Eleocharis
17d ago
I would be surprised if a single one of those attacks was committed by a protestor who was not actively being arrested. And given how much federal officials have lied about the circumstances of this incident, and even more flagrant lies about things such as why innocent people were sent to a foreign torture prison, I put very little stock in those numbers. Presumably the ICE agents believe them though.
I do not believe it is possible for someone whose brain has not been swiss-cheesed by ideological capture to answer "actually I think it's most likely that she has totally legal reasons to be doing that which have nothing to do with me." If that's your answer you are an NPC, you have no theory of mind or independent opinions of your own.
Ah yes, the classic method of productive conversation, where you put words in someone's mouth and then call them names based on the opinions you made up for them. Surely you understand that the only two options are not "they are just there by coincidence" and "they are waiting to murder you"?
The couple were obviously there to document, protest and/or obstruct ICE activities. But I maintain that nobody would have been hurt if the agent had made the slightest attempt to act like a responsible authority figure and deescalate the situation, or if he had given her a chance to follow his orders in order to arrest her.
At the very least, I don't think it's disputed that prisoners in CECOT are in horribly crowded cells and do not have any right to visitation or communication with the outside world.
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