site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of May 20, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Was President van Buren not an American?

Abraham Van Buren was born in Albany, New York on February 17, 1737, the son of Marten Pieterse Van Buren (1701–1766) and Dirckje (Van Alstyne) Van Buren (1710-1798).[1][2] The fifth of nine children, he was a descendant of Cornelis Maessen, a native of Buurmalsen, Netherlands who had come to North America in 1631.

Nope, he's exactly what I was talking about when I said descendants of the thirteen colonies. An ideal example, frankly, because his family had been in the land since damn near as soon as possible.

My own grandmothers are neither American, despite being born here. I consider them to be European from the countries where their ancestors hailed. Both married American men and had American children. So no, your and my grandmothers are not as American as van Buren.

I admire your incredible ideological consistency. Modern society is so massively skewed in the other direction.

And as obscure historical note Van Buren is the outlier president in that he is not a descendant of Irish or anglos. He is the only president not descended from or closely related to King John of England. Including Obama through his mother. Van Buren is the only German outlier bucking the trend.

On the other hand my grandparents are almost caricatures of "all American" people. They happen to be the descendants of Irish immigrants, like many almost-caricature examples of Americanness. But being an American transcends the national origin of your ancestors according to common understanding.