site banner
PaperclipPerfector  10mo ago (text post)   29058 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 24, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

10
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I have yet to see a single proponent of drug legalization (with the underlying reasoning being that if drugs were legal and produced to pharmaceutical standards, then no one would ever use them dangerously)

I am a proponent of drug legalization, but that underlying reasoning is garbage and I cannot think of a single person I know who holds the position I do based on that reasoning.

I mean, obviously, I was being flippant in a parenthetical. But yeah, there are people in this very thread who are saying that pharmaceutical drugs have nothing to do with overdose deaths, at least. I haven't gotten them down to the nitty gritty of other types of dangerous use, but most advocates of drug legalization generally don't want to talk about any type of dangerous use.

In any event, would you praise the Sackler family for at least trying to flood the market with pharmaceutical drugs (whether they succeeded in this endeavor or not, would you praise the endeavor)? Would you say that the only real problem is that they didn't manage to sell billions more pills through millions more doctors looking the other way to millions more straw purchasers? That if only they had flooded the market enough that the street price of pharmaceutical drugs dropped to rock bottom, then it would have positively helped the opioid crisis?

In any event, would you praise the Sackler family for at least trying to flood the market with pharmaceutical drugs (whether they succeeded in this endeavor or not, would you praise the endeavor)?

Absolutely not - I come at this from the "smelly hippy" angle rather than the libertarian one, and I think that what they did was actually monstrous. I'm a proponent of drug legalisation, but I think that legalisation should be accompanied with responsible education and policies with regards to addiction and the like. The Sacklers were ultimately responsible for and made substantial profits from a legal and corporate structure that heavily encouraged and even induced addiction in cases where it wasn't necessary. I absolutely think that drugs should be legal, but I think that part of that liberalisation should include responsible management of them. Encouraging addiction because those ruined lives are extremely profitable is the part of what the Sacklers did that I object to, not so much the distribution of the drugs themselves.

The Sacklers were ultimately responsible for and made substantial profits from a legal and corporate structure that heavily encouraged and even induced addiction in cases where it wasn't necessary.

How so?

Someone else has already written this up for me, so I'll just quote them.

https://web.archive.org/web/20201004103052/https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-sackler-familys-plan-to-keep-its-billions

With the launch of OxyContin, in 1995, Purdue unleashed an unprecedented marketing blitz, pushing the use of powerful opioids for a huge range of ailments and asserting that its product led to addiction in “fewer than one percent” of patients. This strategy was a spectacular commercial success: according to Purdue, OxyContin has since generated approximately thirty billion dollars in revenue, making the Sacklers (whom I wrote about for the magazine, in 2017, and about whom I will publish a book next year) one of America’s richest families.

But OxyContin’s success also sparked a deadly crisis of addiction. Other pharmaceutical companies followed Purdue’s lead, introducing competing products; eventually, millions of Americans were struggling with opioid-use disorders. Many people who were addicted but couldn’t afford or access prescription drugs transitioned to heroin and black-market fentanyl. According to a recent analysis by the Wall Street Journal, the disruptions associated with the coronavirus have only intensified the opioid epidemic, and overdose deaths are accelerating. For all the complexity of this public-health crisis, there is now widespread agreement that its origins are relatively straightforward.

...

Her filing was studded with damning internal company e-mails revealing that, even in the face of a skyrocketing death toll from the opioid crisis, members of the Sackler family pushed Purdue staff to find aggressive new ways to market OxyContin and other opioids, and to persuade doctors to prescribe stronger doses for longer periods of time.

eventually, millions of Americans were struggling with opioid-use disorders.

This is an absolutely magic sentence that tells us nothing about how any of this works. There is no model here. At least, there is no model that can be stated in words, in public. My suspicion for why is because the model that is implicitly being used violates the claims of people who are pro-legalization.

Did you actually click the link? I didn't include the sordid details but they do actually explain what happened and how it worked. A magic sentence like that is totally fine when you include the explanation in another part of the text.

I did click the link. I read the whole thing. They don't explain any sort of model for the intermediate steps. If you need to convince yourself of this, just try. Try on your own to reconstruct a model of how it's supposed to work from the article. Use your own words. See if you can do it.

Uh, sure? They used a variety of financial incentives to encourage doctors to prescribe higher and higher doses of Oxycontin even when it wasn't necessary, because that made them more money. They were directly(and indirectly) paying doctors to hand this stuff out even when it wasn't strictly necessary, taking advantage of the prestige and respect rightfully given to medical professionals in order to generate vast profits while directly fostering opioid addictions.

Maybe I'm missing your point, because I don't know what kind of intermediate steps you need to get from "Inducing doctors to unnecessarily prescribe high doses of opioids" to "Opioid usage epidemic".

More comments

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats