This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I don't think this is true. The only time I genuinely couldn't comprehend where she was trying to go in terms of jurisprudence was her questioning in Murthy v Missouri. Aside from that case, she seems fine to me in oral arguments and writes opinions that I just disagree with. She's not stupid or unsophisticated, she's just wrong. Do you have an example of what you're referring to?
This was certainly my top example, but I don't think it was hard to comprehend. I think it was stupid.
Like, seriously? "The Constitution limits government power, but sometimes we don't like that. What are we supposed to do when the Constitution limits government power in ways we don't like?" This is almost as straightforwardly embarrassing as her inability to answer the question "what is a woman?"
She is similarly stupid in her engagement with issues on race (though Sotomayor has similar problems).
This is not a person who is sophisticated but merely wrong. She's probably smarter than, say, Kamala Harris. But she's definitely bottom-of-the-barrel for SCOTUS, maybe even for the Circuits.
If you read the rest of her comments she says "“I’m interested in your view that the context doesn’t change the First Amendment principles,” Jackson said. “I understood our First Amendment jurisprudence to require heightened scrutiny of government restrictions of speech, but not necessarily a total prohibition when you’re talking about a compelling interest of the government to ensure, for example, that the public has accurate information in the context of a once-in-a-lifetime pandemic.”"
So she is obviously aware that the Constitution limits government power, but she is talking about there not being a total prohibition when there is a compelling interest.
Now you may of course disagree with the fact whether Covid or whatever is such a compelling interest, but I think positing that one question, means she is an idiot, about not understanding what the Constitution does is just cherry picking. The rest of her questioning clearly shows she does know that.
Her question shouldn't paraphrased as
"The Constitution limits government power, but sometimes we don't like that. What are we supposed to do when the Constitution limits government power in ways we don't like?"
but rather as
"The Constitution limits government power, but that limit is not all encompassing. In your view what should the government do when and if it does have such a compelling interest?"
Remembering her question here is in the context of a hypothetical about a viral social media stunt that is causing suicides among teenagers. So she is asking even if people are dying is your position that the government cannot encourage the media companies to suppress these posts. Is that not a compelling interest? And the advocate understands where she is going because he answers, no, the government can use positive speech to condemn the posts but it cannot ask the companies to take them down. So they both understand that government power is limited by the Constitution, what they are going back and forth about is what counts as a compelling interest and where those limits end.
Again, you may think she is wrong about where those limits are, but it is clear she isn't a moron who doesn't understand that the Constitution is there to put limits on government action. She clearly understands that.
I think it's clear that she is kind of a moron (see: "I'm not a biologist"). That aside, there is understanding, and then there is understanding. I'm sure she knows what enumerated powers means. I'm also sure she doesn't give a shit about enumerated powers if the principle happens to get in the way of the result she wants, which constitutes a failure to genuinely grasp the principle and her responsibility to it. That's the problem with results oriented jurisprudence. It's a naked exercise of power; it's illegible and thus illegitimate as a jurisprudence.
That isn't being a moron, that's her toeing the line on the current culture war. And similarly if she does understand it, but is choosing to ignore it, that doesn't make her stupid. I am sure she grasps the principle, she just disagrees over what her responsibility is to it. Which is a good reason to be against her as a justice to be clear! But it isn't the same as not understanding.
People who make themselves deliberately stupid, are still stupid. People who consistently act as if they are stupid, just are stupid. The kind of person who answers "what is a woman" with "I'm not a biologist" is being a stupid person, even if they could in theory generate a wall of text explaining to me why in context it was better to pretend to be an idiot than to give an intelligent answer--that is, even if they have the ability to not be a stupid person.
This is what it means, to be a mistake theorist: I genuinely believe that the people who disagree with me, are making a mistake, and that if they were smarter, it is not a mistake they would make.
For if she is not stupid, well, what remains is for her to be actually evil.
As a mistake theorist, I'm open to the possibility that it's a mistake to be a mistake theorist! But that's where I am right now.
She could still be smart, and be making a mistake though. Right now, I think you are both very intelligent and wrong. If she is deliberately playing her part, because she knows that doing the opposite would be a huge mistake for her career then she isn't being a stupid person. Nor is she being evil. There are other options in between!
She could just be being a standard relatively self-interested person who both believes in her causes, has internalized what she needs to say to fit in in her social group and would quite like to have an important job.
You know who I think that describes? The vast majority of people. Mistake theory doesn't mean that people can only be stupid or evil. They can be smart but wrong, dumb but wrong, or perfectly average but wrong. They can be subject to social forces and so on.
I also consider myself a mistake theorist for context here. Most people are decent people. There are very few evil people in the world. The difference is i think, that I believe that because we are not rational beings, being smart doesn't get you much closer to being correct. So having reached the wrong belief does not mean you are stupid, or being a stupid person. It is simply very very difficult to ignore the whole social edifice of your society. So that being persuaded by it, tells you almost nothing about the individual in question except that they are a person.
You're just describing conflict theory from the inside view. The essence of conflict theory is saying things you don't believe as means to an end rather than to reach understanding. You can think conflict theory is good and normal, it is, but there is no way to describe knowingly saying wrong things on purpose as mistake theory.
Sure there is, that's why I touched on social pressure and conditioning. It's one of the mistakes (hah!) I think Scott made in Conflict vs Mistake. Most people are not making well thought out rational decisions. They are adopting their beliefs and outlooks not necessarily consciously. Even the Mistake theorists. If someone believes whatever rationalizations they have adopted and thinks the other side will take advantage of a current culture war issue, or because it will hinder their career, or because it makes for an uncomfortable conversation, then they can choose not to do X, or to do Y without necessarily being conflict theorists. Selfishness exists outside of Mistake vs Conflict.
Just lying for personal advantage or for some other reason does not on its own make one a conflict theorist. It is only if she is doing so in the service of politics as war. And just to be clear that may be the case, but her actions here don't tell us because she can also derive personal advantage by lying/not examining her views too much. In other words there are other factors that impact people's decisions beyond conflict/mistake.
But also consider if I am a mistake theorist up for the Supreme court. I believe that my opponents are wrong and misinformed and that the truth could be reached if they only realized the mistakes they are making. But 1) I may not believe I can correct them in this context, with the time available. so 2) Even a mistake theorist might decide that lying or evading in this context is the better option. Mistake theorists can be pragmatic. Because 3) When I am a Supreme Court justice I will have plenty of time to make my arguments I otherwise would not.
The core of mistake theory hinges on why you believe people have different beliefs about politics. But that doesn't mean you also believe you can solve that particular issue easily or quickly. Any Mistake theorist is unlikely to think they can convince Democrats/Republicans they are wrong easily or quickly, because if that were the case it would already have been done. So a Mistake theorist even though they would prefer to settle this with a good old fashioned honest debate can take other options depending on the situation. If Earth was going to be destroyed unless Republicans and Democrats united in 7 days, then even if you felt it was possible to come to a truth and convince people, you may still opt to stage a false flag alien invasion or something. Your political philosophy is only one of the things that impacts your decision making.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link