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You're spot on. It's $8.6 billion. Like any good student, you guessed the teacher's password!
The point I was making is that despite this company being "essential" to the U.S. economy, it's worth 1/5th as much as an energy drink company. In fact, the energy drink and burrito sectors of the economy are 10x the value of the steel sector.
The U.S. economy has been so hollowed out that these remaining old economy companies linger on like zombies and political footballs, basically forbidden from ever making a dollar of profit for their investors.
But I think there is a genuine difference between Trump and Harris here. In the Trump world, tariffs go up, regulation goes down, and U.S. steel might actually reward its patient investors. In the Harris world, regulation goes up, and maybe the steel industry gets a bail out or something, but 100% of the value is captured by unions so the company continues to exist as a zombie like it has for half a century. In the Harris economy, nobody in their right mind invests in steel, or autos, or any heavy industries. Detroit, Ohio, and western PA exist as pitiable charity cases while the smart money starts another energy drink company such as Celsius (market cap $8.7 billion).
I'm not sure Trump's tariff plan will work. It might not. But it's at least trying to let the industrial regions stand on their own two feet again.
Tariffs go up, so U.S. steel books more revenue but the downstream price increases mean that the workers' (and investors'!) dollars are worth less. Say what you want about mainstream economics, but tariffs are universally seen as nothing more than self-inflicted price floor raises.
Re-industrialization is a good concept, but it's incredibly fraught. Look at the CHIPS act. This was specifically designed to be a quick-and-easy cut-the-corners "high tech" boost to the economy and the number one complaint about it is that literally nothing has happened. Forget good or bad in terms of economic value, the checks aren't getting cut and so stagnancy reigns.
A (re)industrial policy could be good or it could be bad. Either way, it relies on state capacity and a semi-functional bureaucracy. I don't see that prerequisite as being met right now. That's why Trump's Schedule F reform is actually far more important for those Western PA steelworkers. It's just impossible to make that connection clear in a 10 second sound bite.
Yeah, the CHIPS act was a disaster and I think all the money will be wasted. But with steel tariffs, we're not trying to rebuild something complicated from scratch. We're just trying to overcome Chinese dumping. And we're not asking the government to make decisions, we're just letting the market do the work with our thumbs on the scale a bit.
Note that without tariffs or other industrial policy the Big 3 automakers will be bankrupt and out of business within 10 years. I wonder how economists would suggest dealing with this disruption. Welfare for the laid-off workers? Retraining as coders? The neoliberal consensus has already devastated the Rust Belt pretty thoroughly, so I doubt there solutions will work this time.
And of course, looking at things from an economics-only perspective ignores the fact that we are in a great power struggle with China, one in which we are losing badly. Tariffs allow us to prevent Chinese dumping with the fewest disruptions to the market possible. The alternative proposed by Harris is more socialism.
Chinese dumping of steel isn't a problem in the slightest. In 2017, the last full year before the Trump tariffs, the volume of Chinese steel importiwas so low I can't even find statistics for it; it was outside the top ten, lower than countries like Turkey and Taiwan that no one seems too concerned about. I imagine that the number is even lower now. We currently only import about a quarter of our steel the number one supplier being Canada by far, and number two being Mexico, neither of whom are subject to tariffs.
Weird considering China produces 12.5 times as much steel as the U.S. and 60% of the world total. I have to imagine that would impact global prices. But I'll accept that perhaps China isn't dumping steel to the U.S. specifically, just pretty much every other industrial product.
We import about 3 times as much from China as we export.
China doesn't export raw/barely processed materials (like steel) but finished goods. Chinese steel is turned into cars, ships, airplanes, buildings, tools etc.
The Chinese government is directing economic expansion in new directions, now that physical infrastructure's mostly been built out cheaply. Local steel demand is falling a bit as things rearrange themselves, leading to an increase in Chinese steel exports (to Africa etc.) but it's not even 10% of production. Indeed, exports make up less than 20% of the Chinese economy overall.
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I agree regarding competition with China. This is why I'm in favor of painful and expensive onshoring of semiconductor fabs among other things.
The big autos should've gone out of business years ago. They are more beholden to their extortionist unions than any other single industry. Since 2008 (at least) they've existed as wards of the state. I don't have a ton of sympathy for the apocryphal GM assembly line worker because I think those jobs are basically passed around families / social circles almost like mafia gigs or Boss Tweed style political patronage jobs.
I can see how the social-economic fallout from those firms' failure would be significant. I'll admit that's a tough one I don't have an answer to besides the fact that continuing this zombie-statist-capitalism will eventually lead to national bankruptcy along with a Defense Industrial Base that literally cannot keep pace with a peer actor (China).
I think the Big Red Alarm has already gone off. I also think that the 2024 election can be boiled down to visions of how to best ignore the Big Red Alarm instead of how to deal with what it means.
I have some bad news for you - this won't eventually lead to national bankruptcy and a defence industrial base that cannot keep pace with China. You're already there! China has 232 times the shipbuilding capacity of the USA, and their manufacturing capacity in just about every other industry is leagues ahead of the US as well. In wartime, civilian manufacturing capacity can be switched over to defence/military work - but building entirely new facilities and staffing/training them is substantially more expensive, difficult and time consuming. While the problem isn't as bad (but absolutely still present - https://www.defenseone.com/defense-systems/2024/06/mixed-results-us-military-efforts-reduce-dependence-china/397368/) in military manufacturing, there's enough Chinese penetration into both to render them extremely vulnerable to disruption in the event of serious conflict with China. Keep pace with China? The defence industrial base isn't just failing to keep pace with China, it isn't even capable of standing on its own without their assistance!
Think about what an actual military conflict with China would entail - the removal of Chinese manufacturing capacity (or worse the subversion of critical US military infrastructure due to Chinese manufactured backdoors etc) would cause the US supply chain to fall apart, creating countless problems that would need resources diverted to fix them precisely when those resources would be needed to recreate a manufacturing base. Fixing it is going to be really complicated as well. First of all, the people who made the decisions to cut costs and sell US manufacturing to China are in many cases still in power and still profiting from those decisions. Second, actually seriously investing in domestic manufacturing and military manufacturing would greatly strengthen the domestic political enemies of those in power. This is actually one of the reasons the CHIPS act failed - the various left-wing political sinecures and set-asides put into the bill to make sure that they were on the right side of history were so odious that they held up progress on the proposed plant.
I agree with all of this. I hold out hope that there's still time for America to unfuck itself, but that that timeframe is measured in months at most.
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The answer, as usual, is more capitalism!
When it comes to defense, there are some green shoots with Anduril which is shaking up the socialist-statist defense industry. And of course, SpaceX and StarLink fit this mold as well. New companies will emerge, IF they are allowed to make a profit and not regulated to death like the car companies and US steel.
We need to reduce regulations and allow companies to compete. I'm okay with the Big 3 going out of business as long as we have something to replace them. But we might need tariffs for awhile since China has such a huge head start in nearly all areas.
Unfortunately, This isn't the slam dunk you, or a lot of other smart people, want it to be.
Anduril is learning, now, what it took Lockheed, Raytheon et al 40+ years of pain to understand. The U.S. Military is an awful customer, congress is dumb, and the Federal Acquisition Regulation (specifically Cost-Plus contracts) really fucks up your business model and investor's thesis. I applaud their effort, but there's an iceberg just yonder.
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