This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
In "holy shit" culture war moments, Kanye has lashed out at (((us))) on Twitter. He came out of the gate swinging by stating that:
Please note that Kanye is using double-spaces instead of periods for some reason.
This comes shortly after he was pictured wearing a White Lives Matter shirt, and shortly before he asked rhetorically
As always, the reaction is worse than the action, and causes the story to explode. In response to accusations that Jews control the media and invented cancel culture, Jewish organizations have loudly declared that such accusations are anti-semitic and inherently untrue, and then demanded Kanye be cancelled. The irony appears lost on them. To the surprise of I'm sure absolutely no one, Kanye was quickly locked out of his twitter account.
Social media reactions have been mixed, to say the least. /pol/ has apparently decided that Kanye is one step removed from goose stepping his way down the isle at the Grammys, and is almost /theirguy/. Of course there's also a substantial faction who just spam n****r so I'm going to stop short of saying that Kanye has struck a blow for unity within the racist community.
/r/Kanye, which is dedicated to exactly what you think, is in full melt-down mode understandably.
I really don't have anything else to add to this monumental pile of flaming garbage. There is no redeeming anything buried here. Only more decay and hatred seeping into public spaces. I leave you with only this thought that has been said by far smarter men than I. Twitter delenda est.
Just say nigger, man. We aren't in reddit any more.
There's really not much to go off on here. Kanye is one step removed from believing in lizard men at this point. People melting down at what he says for the uninterested observer is entertainment.
What is gained by saying it?
[EDIT] - No seriously, what's the argument here? Doing things simply because someone told you not to is childish. The idea that liberty can be secured by rejecting all norms was tested to destruction, and it did not actually work at scale. The taboo exists whether you like it or not, and flouting it provides no benefit that I can see. The word is actually garbage.
I don't actually want you or anyone else banned for mentioning it. I'm not going to, though, because I don't see the point, and I'll make the argument against mentioning because I think it's a sound one on the merits.
Gessler can be defied. In extremity, Gessler can be shot. That is the difference, in my view.
Rationalists seem to have this idea that things should make sense, that reason should prevail. I see this as a failing. Human reason is flawed and limited, and the structures built upon it are riddled with flaws. "This doesn't make sense to me" isn't actually proof that the thing in question is broken. Life is full of small indignities, frustrations and compromises, some of which can be fought, most of which have to be merely accepted. If there were an actual benefit to mentioning the word, I'd retract my argument. I don't see one, because I think mentioning it has downsides, and I don't see any actual upsides.
Fighting linguistic taboos led us to where we are now, and I think it's pretty questionable whether it was ever going to lead anywhere else. Words have power, and that power is well-described, like it or not, by the term "magical". Sure, it's all social consensus. But it's actually a consensus, and it's vastly beyond the ability of individuals or small groups or even large ones to change.
If I tell you I'm emptying the ocean with a teaspoon, it's not actually more rational to offer me a backhoe, or even bagger-288. Like, it's not actually a question of scoop size; none of this is at all how the ocean works: water seeks low points, evaporation and rainfall, this isn't going to work. So too with the question at hand.
Concur on the witch density. Time to get on our arguing pants.
I don't think they can; I mean, there's no individual person, it's a massively-distributed network representing the top 60-70% of power, wealth and influence across both tribes. I think the social consensus is too strong, and the benefit sufficiently hypothetical, that it's simply a bad choice. I agree that bullies should be defied. I do not think beating their knuckles with my nose is the way to do it.
There is no chance that using the word in question will damage the taboo against it. Nor will larger-scale attempts to damage the taboo be seen as a positive action. Nor will making a fight of it actually undermine the power of the bullies in any way. They can do this; pretending they can't isn't resistance, it's stupidity. They are not imposing a rule arbitrarily, but rather exploiting a rule that came about for good reasons: Slavery, Jim Crow, the actual legacy of actual racism. That reality is where they're getting most of the power in this instance. It's a kill-zone, so why walk into it?
If they said it's bad to spray-paint swastikas on synagogues or wear white sheets and pointy hoods in public, is it "giving in" to not do those things either? I mean, it's just shapes and clothes, right?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link