site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 16, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

5
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Wake up, babe, new OpenAI frontier model just dropped.

Well, you can’t actually use it yet. But the benchmarks scores are a dramatic leap up.. Perhaps most strikingly, o3 does VERY well on one of the most important and influential benchmarks, the ARC AGI challenge, getting 87% accuracy compared to just 32% from o1. Creator of the challenge François Chollet seems very impressed.

What does all this mean? My view is that this confirms we’re near the end-zone. We shouldn’t expect achieving human-level intelligence to be hard in the first place, given all the additional constraints evolution had to endure in building us (metabolic costs of neurons, infant skull size vs size of the birth canal, etc.). Since we hit the forcing-economy stage with AI sometime in the late 2010s, ever greater amounts of human capital and compute have been dedicated to the problem, so we shouldn’t be surprised. My mood is well captured by this reflection on Twitter from OpenAI researcher Nick Cammarata:

honestly ai is so easy and neural networks are so simple. this was always going to happen to the first intelligent species to come to our planet. we’re about to learn something important about how universes tend to go I think, because I don’t believe we’re in a niche one

For the record, Chollet says (in the thread you linked to):

While the new model is very impressive and represents a big milestone on the way towards AGI, I don't believe this is AGI -- there's still a fair number of very easy ARC-AGI-1 tasks that o3 can't solve, and we have early indications that ARC-AGI-2 will remain extremely challenging for o3.

This shows that it's still feasible to create unsaturated, interesting benchmarks that are easy for humans, yet impossible for AI -- without involving specialist knowledge. We will have AGI when creating such evals becomes outright impossible.

This isn't an argument, I just think it's important to temper expectations - from what I can tell, that o3 will probably still be stumbling over "how many 'rs' in strawberrry" or something like that.

They won't ring a bell when AGI happens, but it will feel obvious in retrospect. Most people acknowledge now that ChatGPT 3.5 passed the Turing Test in 2022. But I don't recall any parades at the time.

I wonder if we'll look back on 2025 the same way.

ChatGPT 3.5 passed the Turing Test in 2022

Did it? Has the turing test been passed at all?

An honest question: how favorable is the Turing Test supposed to be to the AI?

  • Is the tester experienced with AI?
  • Does the tester know the terms of the test?
  • Do they have a stake in the outcome? (e.g. an incentive for them to try their best to find the AI)
  • Does the human in the test have an incentive to "win"? (distinguish themselves from the AI)

If all these things hold, then I don't think we're anywhere close to passing this test yet. ChatGPT 3.5 would fail instantly as it will gleefully announce that it's an AI when asked. Even today, it's easy for an experienced chatter to find an AI if they care to suss it out. Even something as simple as "write me a fibonacci function in Python" will reveal the vast majority of AI models (they can't help themselves), but if the tester is allowed to use well-crafted adversarial inputs, it's completely hopeless.

If we allow a favorable test, like not warning the human that they might be talking to an AI, then in theory even ELIZA might have passed it a half-century ago. It's easy to fool people when they're expecting a human and not looking too hard.

ChatGPT 3.5 would fail instantly as it will gleefully announce that it's an AI when asked.

Only due to the RLHF and system prompt; that's an issue with the implementation, not the technology.