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Culture War Roundup for the week of October 17, 2022

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That would be evidence that humans achieve something by torture. However, that something is not necessarily the exact information that is needed.

In pre-industrial Western countries, use of torture was often doctrinal to obtain not information, but confessions of heresy for the sake of the soul of the guilty. It was quite popular and quite widely applied! Then many death penalties also involved torture, because, uh, reasons? Whatever the reason was, it wasn't just 18th century French, the Romans also had reasons for torturous punishments (ditto for Hammurabi).

I wouldn't simply shrug off the possibility that yes, humans quite like torturing and killing other humans for "fun", and rationalize it. It likely has some reason, maybe something to do with warfare and establishing a domination hierarchy (but which is not necessarily the same reason humans say to themselves).

Speaking of military intelligence, I thought the oldest and most reliable way (even today) to obtain enemy's secrets is to pay agents with money and luxuries. Or that is what Sun Tzu suggests.

The enemy’s spies who have come to spy on us must be sought out,760 tempted with bribes, led away and comfortably housed.761 Thus they will become converted spies and available for our service.

It is through the information brought by the converted spy that we are able to acquire and employ local and inward spies.762

It is owing to his information, again, that we can cause the doomed spy to carry false tidings to the enemy.763

Lastly, it is by his information that the surviving spy can be used on appointed occasions.764

The end and aim of spying in all its five varieties is knowledge of the enemy;765 and this knowledge can only be derived, in the first instance, from the converted spy.766 Hence it is essential that the converted spy be treated with the utmost liberality.

Art of War, Ch 13, Giles Translation