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ZorbaTHut  1yr ago (text post)   31279 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 17, 2022

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As an example, the whole "races can't be easily delineated, there's no gene specific to any race, and there's more variation within races than between them" argument seems to be a poor attempt at deflection and simply doesn't hold up as a method of dismissing population-level differences. Just because races can't be easily delineated does not mean that race is a "social construct" - race might not be discrete, but it is a real physical entity with roots in biology and just because there's no clear dividing lines which can be drawn doesn't exclude the fact that if you do decide to draw these lines it's entirely possible you'd find differences which exist. None of what's said is inconsistent with the idea of innate variations in intelligence and ability that roughly correlate with observable phenotypic traits. All it takes is for the frequency of specific alleles which code for these traits to be unequally distributed, and you'll find aggregate differences. But the way it's presented exists to mislead people into thinking that the continuum-like nature of genetic differences means that these differences or even the concept of race itself as a biological entity is not something that one should even entertain.

This is basically correct: Races are categories, and while it is absolutely true that the categories (ie, where the lines are drawn) are socially constructed rather than given by nature, that does not mean that they are arbitrary, and it certainly does not mean that there are no average genetic differences between populations which we call Race A and Race B -- Eg: sickle cell anemia is far more common among the race we in the USA call "black" than the one we call "white." But it seems to me that you weaken your argument a bity when you refer to "the concept of race itself as a biological entity" rather than sticking with the argument that there are some actual average genetic difference between races, even if they are not "biological entities" but are socially constructed. The socially constructed argument is actually irrelevant; there is no need to refute it.

Even more than this, these "successful" religions that are common in civilisations share quite a few similarities in their dictates - selflessness, self-discipline, abstinence, etc.

What successful religions really have in common is a message that they are not a threat to elites: Christianity: Your reward will be in heaven, so if you are at the bottom, just chill a while. And, render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Hinduism: Follow the rules, and stay in your place. Buddhism: The source of suffering is desire. So, to be happy, give up wanting to move up.

What successful religions really have in common is a message that they are not a threat to elites

Islam doesn't seem to like the others in this regard. Its founder denounced non-Islamic rulers and waged wars of aggression against them.

In his traditional biography Mohammed pissed off the elites of Mecca so much he had to leave to keep his life.

In Medina, he sponsored a more ecumenical document - the Constitution of Medina - that gave rights to the Jews and tribes living there as well as the new Muslims.

Of course, once he'd gathered up sufficient power to ignore it, he destroyed the Jews and seized Mecca. But that took a while.

In his traditional biography Mohammed pissed off the elites of Mecca so much he had to leave to save his life.

A pretty straight putt modification to @Gdanning's conjecture should be "successful religions (eventually) deliver a message that isn't threatening to (their) elites." Christianity was also extremely threatening the status quo at the start, which is why Diocletion and other Roman emperors tried so hard to stamp it out. But when a revolutionary new Christian elite under Constatine took their place, we get the Council of Niceaea, and all the inconvenient or threatening parts of the religion get sandpapered over. Eventually, the religion that said all rich people are literally going to hell morphs into something telling serfs to stay in their place and the duke gets to live in a palace because God wills it.

Eventually, the religion that said all rich people are literally going to hell morphs into something telling serfs to stay in their place and the duke gets to live in a palace because God wills it.

Note that even "rich people are going to hell" is not a threat to the status of the rich in the temporal world, but rather the opposite: It tells the poor that the rich will get theirs eventually, so there is no need to try to take them down now.

Those were more akin to external wars, were they not? As I understand it, in Medina, the success of Islam was via conversion of elites rather than by force.

I am referring to what successful religion tells those at the bottom of society how to act. I don't know a huge amount about the teachings of Islam about this, but the verse of righteousness does say that those are righteous who "are patient in poverty", and then there is this discussion

And, of course, this is distinct from what religions say about rulers who are apostates or who do not adhere to the religion at issue. Looking at this through a Darwinian lens, a religion that teaches that rulers must adhere to its teachings is likely to grow more than one that doesn't, at least once the religion gets large enough that the ruler can't simply crush it.

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