site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

20
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

real or actual

A little of both. I think we move the ratchet as we grow in capability. Catholic/Protestant tolerance was an existential threat in 1600; by 1800 it is plausible, and by 2000 it’s normalized in the West. Debating sex changes and related culture was completely useless in the Industrial Revolution. I’d say it’s in the second stage right now.

Cthulhu's swim is powered by technological surplus. If we keep accruing more, we will grow closer to the liberal ideal.

cochlear implants

I’m told this is actually a point of contention among the deaf! Partly generational, but those without implants sometimes view them as breaking solidarity, cultural erasure, etc. The full oppression stack that you’d see for more salient issues. Deafness is “settled” enough, in the mainstream, that there’s no political capital in the tribal lines, so we don’t get the same framework of allies and validation built on top.

I’m told this is actually a point of contention among the deaf!

That's its value: as a contrast. A "marginalized group" complained about being erased and most people don't care - hell, even know about the debate! There's no outrage, no drama in the mainstream. From a naive perspective - if we're just gonna be culture-warring over medical interventions - you'd think the older, already organized, objectively easier to define contingent of deaf people could have some say. But it's never been a live issue.

Meanwhile: the President is weighing in on "gender affirming healthcare" (puberty blockers, mastectomies and hormones) and we can't stop hearing about the on-trans violence because being a sexual deviant/sex worker in Brazil is dangerous.

Oh, I read that a different way.

People got used to making accommodations for the deaf. Subtitles and transcripts. I’d expect most Americans know of ASL, and dismiss it as a fun curiosity, rather than because it’s an imposition. This is despite that fact that it gets taught in schools and pandered in media!

The deaf have already won. They have an obvious disability, and our culture shifted to accommodate it, despite the costs. Something similar goes for the blind and the wheelchair-bound. It wasn’t without a fight, either: this was absolutely one of the culture wars.

Trans people don’t trigger the same flags, and the social and medical costs of accommodation are higher. That’s why I expect acceptance to improve with technology.

This is a different fight though. There was no question as to whether the deaf could actually hear or whether the best way to help them was to increase accessibility for people who cannot hear. These are not givens for the modern debate over gender.

It wasn’t without a fight, either: this was absolutely one of the culture wars.

Accommodations for people with disabilities are not nearly as divisive as trans issues. Divisiveness is a key feature for something to be part of the "culture war", according to my interpretation of the term at least.

But it was! Down to the sweeping gestures in DC.

Before that there were legal battles over involuntary confinement and forced sterilizations. People were joining all sorts of inappropriately named (by today's standards) activist groups.

Or to go further back, Helen Keller is a household name. I don't think most Americans could name a trans activist.

Hellen Keller is remembered more as a deaf person than a deaf activist though. Most Americans probably couldn't name Anne Sullivan, the corresponding non-deaf activist. And if you ask Americans to just name a trans person, they'll probably know Caitlin Jenner.