This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
What in the fresh hell, Pennsylvania?
Has the Motte discussed John Fetterman? If so, I missed it... I admit there are enough races I'm watching across the country that it is hard to keep track of them all. But in case you, too, have missed it, John Fetterman is the Democratic candidate for the seat of outgoing Senator Pat Toomey, one of 7 Republican senators who voted to convict Donald Trump in his second impeachment circus. Seven days before winning the Primary, John Fetterman had a stroke.
I am not a medical doctor. For all I know, Fetterman will make a full recovery, eventually. But as of right now, the guy is one step above monosyllabic. Which made tonight's debate absolutely excruciating to watch. Over the course of the night, PredictIt shifted ten cents in favor of Fetterman's opponent,
the Wizard ofMehmet Oz. And yet most media accounts of the debate are steadfastly reporting only the substance, such as it was. No surprise--the media has been carrying water for Fetterman for weeks. But like... really? You can't report a single sentence saying, "Fetterman was clearly not up to the task." Watching people hit Twitter to unironically praise him for "doing really well, for a stroke victim!" is shocking. The level of partisanship required to vote for Fetterman at this point simply boggles the mind. On the flip side, #Festerman was briefly trending on Twitter before (I presume) someone elbowed their censors.Of course, we can trust our outspoken President to just tell it like it is. Perhaps President Biden understands better than anyone, given the possibility that he, too, might simply be functioning as a sock puppet for the Democratic establishment. The counterargument that criticizing Fetterman's cognition is some kind of "ableism" is just hollow. This is not a man who can do the job of Senator, at least not right now, and to pretend otherwise just seems exploitative to me. (And calling that a "bad faith" argument seems willfully ignorant. The man can barely speak, that's much more than an "auditory processing" problem.)
Of course, voting has been open for a month in Pennsylvania, and the state has already declared its intention to turn a blind eye to a recent U.S. Supreme Court ruling as it counts undated ballots. So in addition to potentially electing someone with the mental faculties of a young child to high federal office, Pennsylvania is also setting up a judicial crisis for its election process.
And all because Oz is, well, a Trumpist. If this is what midterms look like, 2024 is going to be... just something else. I can't even imagine. It's simply too much.
This implies either: 1) a stroke that results in inability to speak necessarily also affects the ability to think analytically; or 2) the ability to speak is critical to the job of Senator. Neither of those things is true.
Re: #1, it would certainly be news to Steven Hawking that speech problems = inability to think, and it is pretty common knowledge that different areas of the brain control different processes. Moreover, suppose Fetterman's stroke had left him completely mute. Would that prove that he would be cognitively unable to perform the duties of Senator? I don't see how, and in fact I rather doubt that anyone would make that claim. Thus, the mere fact that Fetterman has language problems is hardly the ironclad proof that he is unqualified that you think it is.
Re: #2, Senators spend most of their time doing everything other than speaking. And, perhaps more important is that the number one job of a Senator is to represent his constituents. Hence, if Candidate X supports policies that I disagree with, and Candidate Y supports policies that I agree with but has suffered a stroke, it is nonsensical to argue that Candidate X will do a better job as Senator than Candidate Y - from my perspective, he will do a worse job.
No, I didn't put those two sentences together, and neither should you.
Yes, speaking is an important part of a Senator's job; I additionally regard comprehension as an important part of a Senator's job, and the debate shows Fetterman sorely lacking in that department even with transcripting aids. But I would more vehemently disagree with this:
I regard political leadership as subtantially more important than political representation. The Framers of the Constitution clearly agreed with me, at least in connection with the Senate; the House is where "representation" was supposed to take place (hence, "House of Representatives") while the Senate was supposed to be a more aristocratic institution. Essentially, I regard the 17th Amendment as a horrible mistake.
It strikes me as odd to suggest that stroke addled Fetterman is insufficiently able to provide political leadership when the alternative is... Dr. Oz.
Can we do without the dog and pony show? Oz votes the way you like. Fetterman votes the way I like. The stroke is irrelevant to both of us.
I'm sorry you feel this way--indeed, I think it is corrosive to society that you feel this way--but I certainly do not feel this way. I'm also the kind of person who tends to vote for third party candidates, so you've furthermore misread me even to that extent (and I don't think there is anything in my post to suggest that I endorse Oz!). If you're going to insist that others are dealing in bad faith simply because you yourself are an unprincipled partisan, that's a you problem.
I don't think viewing senators as no more than button pushers makes someone unprincipled. It just means that "my senator should be a leader" isn't one of my principles.
I don't think most people think senators need to be leaders, and would cite the nomination of a weight loss snake oil salesman as evidence.
If you truly expect more from US senators, I apologise for my suggestion otherwise, and you have my sympathies for what must be a life of constant disappointment.
I appreciate that. Because yes--my disappointment is immeasurable.
Look on the bright side. At some point we'll be dead.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Can you point to a Red Tribe leader that became incapable on the job, where you supported their removal? Ideally one where the removal actually occurred? Should Reagan have gotten the 25th amendment? Trump?
In an ideal world, I would agree with you, and I think most everyone here would as well. This is very explicitly not an ideal world. I think this is one of those situations where the proper response is to mourn the tragedy without attempting to assign blame or score points. I do not think it can be argued that this is a problem Blues caused. This is a problem we all caused together, and your disapproval is not going to help fix it.
William Rehnquist. As I recall, he was in very poor health late in life, but died in office rather than resigning. I thought at the time that this added to a poor precedent, and to no purpose.
More options
Context Copy link
At the time, I was skeptical that Reagan should be removed, but some of the stories I have heard since his death suggest to me that the people closest to him did know that he was incapable of functioning as POTUS. Had those stories been publicly available (pre-Internet was a very different time!) I would likely have favored his resignation. Certainly I am fascinated by the legacy of Edith Bolling Galt Wilson, whose husband should probably have just resigned. We don't elect couples to serve as POTUS (maybe we should!). But somehow we now celebrate a woman who essentially held herself a bloodless little coup.
One of the reasons I left law practice behind is that I am simply not moved by this kind of reasoning. I don't see any reason to compromise on my ideals, or to make allowances for the difficulty others have living up to theirs. My voting record is a shambles of support for non-viable candidates. My personal wealth is a fraction of what it could be if I refused to bear the costs of unilateral defections from undesirable status quos. But I don't know any other way to make the world a better place, than to refuse to choose evil simply because it is the lesser of available evils. I consider myself well-versed in the many arguments for not allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the good, but it's not perfection I'm after. I just refuse to concede ground to idiots, and if they burn me at the stake for it, then I'm well rid of them.
I am certainly not arguing that "this is a problem Blues caused." But I do think it's exploitative and wrong to use mentally handicapped people as partisan props. Calling that a "dog and pony show" or accusing me of bad faith or saying these kinds of arguments "go nowhere" is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's wrong to treat people this way. Once you acknowledge that this is not the way things ought to be done, then you should say and do what you can to stop it happening. Often, you will not be able to say or do anything to stop it happening! But here I am, doing my small part by raising the argument. If others have made similar arguments in bad faith, and you pattern match them to me, and thereby dismiss me as just another partisan hack, well--what can I say? I tried, and will continue to try.
well spoken, though I find myself more depressed than ever. Did you ever read "sort by controversial"?
Do you think Fetterman is functionally unaware of his surroundings, of what's going on with his campaign? Is your argument that he shouldn't be allowed to do what he wants to do because it's bad for him, or that he's not the one doing it?
Yep. The phenomenon of scissor statements remains, I think, poorly understood, but I think it's a very real phenomenon.
Have you ever had a very close friend or loved one experience a serious stroke, or head injury, or similar? The recovery arc is similar (six months, perhaps one year of improvement, followed by a pretty hard plateau) but the specific symptoms are wildly unpredictable. Sometimes it seems to map to known brain region issues, so like, damage to the frontal lobes turns sweet people surly, as in the classic case of Phineas Gage. Bilinguial have been known to lose the language of their childhood, or the language of their adulthood, but not the other one. Sometimes brain functions seem to fade in and out, particularly if the recovered patient doesn't get plenty of sleep--hypersomnia is a common long term effect of brain problems.
Depending on the severity of injury, it's common for those with brain injuries to need a guardian, conservator, or similar legal arrangement to protect their interests. This might be because spotty executive function makes splurge spending a problem. It might be because the recovered patient is easily suggestible, or incapable of grasping the full consequences of their actions. And sometimes it will seem like they are actually fine, for a moment or a day or a week, and people will wonder whether it's really necessary to treat them paternalistically. In the ideal world, they have a close loved one who can navigate these problems for them in a way that is a dynamic blend of cooperation, leadership, and care. But there's no question that brain injuries often end marriages, when the healthy spouse can't or won't commit to bearing that burden for the rest of their life.
I can't know for sure whether Fetterman is functionally unaware of his surroundings, since he has ("inexplicably?") refused to release his medical records. But he doesn't seem coherent to me. Having a Senator who may have spotty executive function, or be easily suggestible, or have a limited grasp of the consequences of his actions, seems like a recipe for disaster. The possibilities for espionage alone are enough to be worrisome. Watching his wife function as his handler--and having President Biden say Gisele is "gonna be a great, great lady in the Senate"--suggests very strongly to me that Fetterman is going where he's told to go and saying what he's told to say. Whatever personal autonomy he's managed to keep grasp of, I'm very skeptical that he is functioning at baseline human autonomy levels, and certainly not at a level we should want for people who get national security briefings, vote on major legislation, etc.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link