This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I don't mind the decision, nor am I blaming Shuri. I mind/blame the writers who didn't do anything with the decision. What could have been an excellent theme-establishing line of dialogue- of Shuri's rejecting the counsel of others, to her own later regret, of establishing a character flaw to overcome ('I'm the smart one, I know better than everyone else')... this would be a good character arc that would support the general plot of the movie, while keeping the theme of grief.
This could have been the establishing character moment, of Shuri trying to solve everything herself without considering the consequences to those she ignores. T'Challa off-screen is one- and one that can give her something to bond over/reflect with T'Challa's ex-girlfriend (someone else who wasn't there at his death bed)- but it can be a reoccuring thematic touch point. Shuri ignoring bald-general's guidance, and getting American police killed- especially if the police are reframed as trying to protect/rescue Riri from a kidnapping, rather than being cast of the villians, in a chaotic three-way where Shuri is trying to 'solve' the problem of the mystery assassins against Riri but doesn't trust/talk with the CIA Liasion Ross dude. It could come across in the discussion with Namor, where rather than Shuri being 'charmed but unwilling to compromise her morals,' let Namor actually tempt/manipulate Shuri, playing the dark counselor and the person whose advice she shouldn't trust (because it appeals to her own ego). Let her think that she's in control, that she knows best and can solve this diplomatically... so that she brings him into Wakanda, against the advice/warnings of others, only to be faced with treachery, right after she appeals to her mother to trust her / let her in / becomes complicit in the tragedy of her mother's death. Then let it come again with Gorilla Tribe chieftan dude, who plays the mentor schtick in the later movie, and who deals with her in a crisis of guild/trust as she doesn't trust herself or know who else to trust. And, of course, let it come down to the thematic tension between Killmonger from the vision- another dark influence- and T'Challa's ex, who asks for her trust and to confidence. Let that culminating moment- of when Shuri truly listens to others over what she wants and rationalizes over what is right- be when she let's her late brother's counsel, and his words, come through the meaningful echo.
Shuri can have agency if she makes mistakes. She can overcome weaknesses, without fundamentally overhauling the plot. Let the twin themes of guilt and struggling to accept the advice of others (while being wary of those who would mislead her) be character themes.
As-is, Shuri (and to a different degree, Riri) is closer to a black female Tony Stark, only without the flaws and the charisma and the character conflicts internal and external that made him gripping.
I don't blame Shuri for that, but I do blame the writers for that. Shuri in Wakanda Forever is flat. Shuri in Wakanda Forever could have been incredibly interesting with the early set-up.
More options
Context Copy link