This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
No, the court ruled that because Trump used his Twitter account to conduct government business, and because it was open to general discourse by the public, it was a designated public forum. The court said:
Since Trump is no longer a govt official, his account is no longer a designated public forum, even if he uses it for his campaign. Campbell v. Reisch, 986 F. 3d 822 (8th Cir. 2021).
If you're going to say "no" you probably should say something that contradicts me. When Trump was banned he was still POTUS, and we are discussing a scenario when he's POTUS again.
We are talking about whether he should be restored now, are we not?
And, btw, your premise ("if access to POTUS' tweets is some sort of fundamental right") is completely wrong; the constitutional question is not about access to tweets; it is whether a govt social media account can engage in viewpoint discrimination. The case was about the right to speak, not about the right to access information.
Yeah, and a question asked in this comment chain was: "No, seriously, what's so important about Twitter/FB that the POTUS needs to be on it?". So we are discussing a scenario where he's the POTUS, right?
But it wasn't a government social media account, and no one's right to speak was limited. Even if we decide that both of those things are true just because the court said so, that just means Twitter is limiting the right to speak of all Twitter users.
Except that the court held that indeed it was, for First Amendment purposes, and that indeed they were, under very longstanding principles of First Amendment law.
You have your facts wrong. The issue was Trump blocking people, not Twitter. Note that in court, Trump did NOT argue that Twitter was blocking anyone, but that he was, but that he was doing so as a private person. Alternatively, he argued that doing so was "government speech" -- a terrible argument, but nevertheless a refutation of the claim that Twitter was the one doing the blocking.
I don't believe that a judge saying something automatically makes it true.
No I don't. I agree with the facts as you stated them.
So just as a hypothetical, if Trump asked Twitter to block that journalist from responding to him, and Twitter obliged, that would have been fine, according to you?
Perhaps not, but when a judge reaches a conclusion by applying well-established law to uncontroverted facts, it is incumbent upon those who claim that the judge has erred to explain why, not simply to say "in my untutored opinion, it is wrong."
No, because under even more well-established law, that sort of joint action would probably constitute state action and hence bring Twitter's action under the ambit of the First Amendment.
If he did, in fact reach that conclusion by applying principles, you can bring that reasoning up in the discussion, rather than just say "a court said it".
Cool. So since we know various alphabet agencies have access to an API where they can ask for the removal of content, would you then agree that if Trump's account was banned following such a request, then the ban was illegal?
It wasn't a "he", it was a they - a three-judge panel of the Second Circuit
The decision is easy enough to find, and of course it cites all sorts of black letter law. It appears, to anyone who is at all familiar with First Amendment law, to be pretty much a no brainer - which is probably why the decision was unanimous, and why the petition for rehearing en banc was denied.
As always re state action, that depends on the specific facts. For example, if the govt is merely telling Twitter that they found a tweet that they think violates Twitter's terms of service, then no. If they said, "remove this tweet or else," then yes. If it is somewhere in between, then it depends. I do note that the very article you link says that social media companies took action on only 35 percent of the items flagged by the government, which seems to imply that this is closer to the former than to the latter.
BTW, AFAIK, Twitter, et al, are wrong to censor any speech that is protected under the First Amendment, which includes pretty much everything Trump has ever said (other than some things that might constitute defamation). But, unfortunately, the law currently allows them to do so. Perhaps that will change; with any luck, Florida and Texas will win their lawsuits on that very issue.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link