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The French Revolution seems pretty collectivist, and it, its progenitors and descendents alike all seem to have considered themselves staunch disciples of the Enlightenment. Nor were American Enlightenment titans like Jefferson able to reliably identify heresy in advance. So on what basis do you claim individualism as the distinguishing mark of the Enlightenment tradition?
I often come across people willing to explain why, by their personal standards, this or that ideology is excluded from their understanding of the Enlightenment. What I'm looking at is an explanation that would satisfy Progressives themselves. My whole argument is that people regularly arrive at Progressive ideology through engagement with Enlightenment ideals. I'll readily agree that not all people do, but Progressivism itself certainly seems to have arisen in this way, as Progressives themselves will tell you.
Compared to what? Where's the individual under Louis XVI? He has no vote, no gun, no power. Universal suffrage is the most individualist concept there is.
And people arrived at enlightenment ideology through engagement with christian ideals. You attempt to clear a high bar before claiming that wokism and marxism are related, then you revert to the thinnest, most circumstancial and superficial similarities for also condemning the Enlightenment. By this extremely loose standard, every ideology, even, presumably, yours, can be tarred.
The Enlightenment does believe that societies can be improved, true, and that the sky is blue. There end the similarities with Marxism/Wokism. It does not view every interaction through the oppressed/oppressor lens, nor require the upending of society, nor defend genocide.
Compared to the ancien régime. It seems obvious to me that a tyranny actively attempting to root out and destroy anything not identical to itself is more collectivist than a sclerotic monarchy.
That was indeed the theory, was it not? But what was the result? Did the "individual" have vote, gun, power under the Reign of Terror, or did those accrue to the Committee of Public Safety and its thugs? Did he have them under Napoleon? Likewise, I'm given to understand that the USSR had "universal suffrage".
This is the distinction between sequence and descent, though. The Enlightenment was explicitly a departure from the Christian tradition. Most of its branches outright repudiated Christianity, and explicitly embraced atheism, the supremacy and sufficiency of human reason, and the overthrow of tradition and superstition.
The Enlightenment attempted to supplant Christianity, in the same way Christianity supplanted Paganism. That it has not entirely succeeded is, in my view, entirely down to the disastrous results it delivers with monotonous regularity. Those results were held at bay in the anglosphere, where the local forms of Christianity resisted effectively for a century or two longer than elsewhere, but now that it's reaching its full flower even in the anglosphere, its results begin to take hold here as well.
Belief in the supremacy of human reason and the infinite perfectibility of man are not thin, circumstantial, or superficial similarities. They're two of the three ingredients for the best-known recipe for giant piles of skulls, and they're two of the core tenants of Enlightenment ideology. The final ingredient is class warfare, which appears to spontaneously arise from these two unless it is actively prevented.
I rather doubt it. I think the history of Christian societies stacks up quite favorably to anything the Enlightenment has produced.
The Enlightenment holds that Human reason can solve all our problems. The corollary which pops up over and over again is that if problems aren't getting solved, it must be someone's fault, since our reason is infallible. This does in fact lead to the oppressed/oppressor lens, the upending of society and genocide.
I get that moderates, liberals and old-fashioned conservatives have a great deal of reflexive affection for the Enlightenment. I get that it's a core part of our secular religion. I still maintain that the Progressives have a strong claim to be its true heirs, and that in any case its predictions have been falsified. Where we are is where we were always going to be, because this is where the Enlightenment leads.
I don't see the connection with individualism/collectivism. You appear to classify those regimes on their boringness.
He did get it. And well, one of the corollaries of his newfound powers early on was that his political career might end with his head in a basket. With great power comes great responsibility.
Napoleon was popular for a long time, even in neighbouring countries. He was more of a presidential figure, ruling with the consent of the people.
But I'm not here to judge the common man's taste for war and occasionally chopping off heads, just pointing out that he was far more powerful than he had been.
Charitably considered, those beliefs are trivially true. Why do we even bother discussing anything if faith is supreme? Do you believe man has achieved a state of imperfectibility?
I disagree, on the weight of evidence of improving indicators a la Better angels of our nature. You always write these blanket reactionary condemnations, but what's your model christian society ? Theodosian Rome, pre-civil war England, mid 19th century papal state?
Do you see the difference between the two accusations ? Marxism/wokism share the same talking points. Then when you get to the enlightenment, you inject your own reasoning and say it somehow leads to those talking points. "In fact", the latter is a far more tenuous connection, and I, enlightenment acolyte, reject your conclusions.
Prior to the Revolution, France recognized three estates. Post revolution, it recognized one, The People, The Public, and was ruled by dictators wielding power in the public's name. When a "committee of public safety" dictates the correct way to for all citizens to think and act, and begins jailing or executing anyone who steps out of line, is this not collectivism, in the "opposite of individualism" sense?
Did he get it in the Soviet Union as well? If not, how was the Soviet Revolution materially different from the French Revolution? It seems obvious that by your argument, the average Russian was more powerful under the USSR, and quite possibly richer as well. Is this the claim?
How? Would you mind elaborating, particularly on what you see as a charitable interpretation of the Enlightenment's claims would be?
Was the French revolution individualist or collectivist? As the old Soviet joke says: "it depends on who you are".
For example, if you were worker, you had to be strict individualist, you had to stand proudly alone, negotiating with your fellow individual (who just happened to own factory, mine or estate while you were penniless loser) as one equal citizen with another.
Or else.
As different as sun and moon.
If we are talking about material interests, Russian revolution was about collectivization of land, factories and all means of production.
French revolution was about distribution of means of production (mostly land at the time) to trustworthy private owners.
If you want to compare it to something from modern time, it was more like post-1991 great capitalist revolution (with more colorful pageantry).
(translation courtesy to Google, so you do not have click the button yourself)
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