This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
It's probably not a shock to you that Protestants in practice tend to reinvent church authority by 'whose interpretation of the bible is the best' or that megachurch Protestantism, whether denominational or not, is an outgrowth of Baptist Protestantism. Baptist Protestantism(and Baptists insist by their own description they are not a denomination- the SBC is a confederation of 'local' 'individual' churches with fairly wide theological variance explicitly tolerated. Other Baptist conventions are very similar- that's why they don't call themselves a church, that's reserved for the 'local' 'individual' churches) in turn separated from Anglicanism through a radical rejection of the more high-church features of Anglicanism- in addition to the radical independence of Baptist churches, they also don't believe in the sacraments. Not 'restricted list of sacraments'- they full blown don't believe there's any such thing as a sacrament. Baptism, communion, marriage, etc are seen as commandments from God to mark a change the faithful have already made within themselves and not as actions that actually do anything. That's why they insist on adult baptism by full immersion; it showcases a commitment made individually which a child is incapable of making, and with that mentality an insistence on full immersion makes a lot of sense because the important thing is imitating what the bible shows and not the minimally effective form which an ex opere operato theology would point to. This is naturally orthopraxic, obviously, and one of the unspoken orthopraxies is that the senior pastor of an independent church needs to be followed in biblical interpretation absolutely(see 'Protestants in practice tend to reinvent church authority').
Enter the megachurch- an extremely large church, often with satellite branches, with a single senior pastor, many of whom are essentially hereditary. This sprung up around the same time as evangelicalism- which is really an approach to soteriology emphasizing the relationship of the individual with Jesus, naturally fitting the orthopraxic and internal-spirituality emphasizing nature of Baptist Protestantism(nondenoms are just Baptists light). But I think they're separate trends. There's lots of tiny Baptist/nondenom churches with a senior pastor who has a day job because the church isn't big enough to cover his salary which have the same soteriological approach. The soteriological approach also allows Protestants having it to reach a truce with Catholics, Orthodox, confessional Protestants, etc- the internal spiritual relationship with Jesus is more important than having a particular theological belief.
TLDR if you go to your nearest non-black megachurch on Sunday there's a decent chance one of the sermons will be livestreamed from the principle church(probably located in the south somewhere). A lot of Trump's megachurch pastors in his inner circle have congregants across the country, not just in their own city- I pointed out Jefress because he's based in Dallas, but there's other examples.
Yes, I have heard the common refrain from people of evangelical upbringing that "it's okay, as long as you love Jesus." As you said, this is almost certainly a huge part of why American evangelicals are much more open to good relations with Catholics than confessional Protestants: for the evangelicals I know, the tension with Rome is less "they believe doctrines I believe to be heretical," and more "I do not believe that Catholics love Jesus Christ."
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link