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PaperclipPerfector  5mo ago (text post)   34481 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of May 5, 2025

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I dont think the Father is non-physical because its "better". I think its a continuation of jewish belief, and continues to draw some justification from the (reduced) image prohibition.

I wonder what you think of the Real Presence and relics? They seem in a similar spirit as physical resurrection to me.

I wonder what you think of the Real Presence and relics?

Relics I pretty much think of as superstition. I'm not against the idea of holy objects or corpses, but relics imo verge into idol worship, where they seem to have power of their own. Even if Stephen was blessed for his faith, I'm not sure Stephen's fibula was blessed in the same way, and I especially don't think I'll be blessed for revering his fibula or carrying it around. It seems like a distraction pulling one away from Christ.

I've never really understood the Real Presence. It sounds like it means the bread and wine are literally Jesus' body in some sense, but in what sense? Clearly they don't actually physically become flesh and blood at any point--we would know if they did. I'm also sure that people have done unsavory things to bread and wine post-blessing, and while that may be symbolically violating Jesus I'm confident he's not actually harmed, so common sense tells me that the Communion isn't literally part of his body.

They seem in a similar spirit as physical resurrection to me.

The physical resurrection has a strong biblical foundation. I'd argue Christ made a concerted effort to teach his apostles specifically that the resurrection was both real and physical. As I said elsewhere:

It was important for us to learn, not just that Christ ascended to the right hand of God (which could be true in a purely spiritual/metaphorical/non-physical sense), but that his body came back to life, and even possessed some of the same functions as mortal bodies, such as being capable of eating food. He was really trying to prove, not just that death is not the end, but that the [physical] resurrection specifically is a real thing.

I guess you could see this as a "spiritual" resurrection, but then, what's the difference between a resurrected spirit body capable of eating food and otherwise interacting directly with matter, and a physical body? And why does the stipulation that the resurrection is non-physical matter so much, if these bodies possess important physical characteristics?

arguing for physical resurrection

To be clear, Im in favour of all three points. I dont want to say agree, since Im an atheist and that would make it even weirder than it already is, but Im anti-gnostic.

I'm not against the idea of holy objects or corpses, but relics imo verge into idol worship, where they seem to have power of their own.

Certainly some people do that. I think personally seeing and maybe interacting with a semi-important piece of Gods history can have a big impact on someone. Its not separate in the sense that its an inevitable part of whatever happened to and with it in the first place. Visiting the holy land is similar, and propably seems less idolatrous.

while that may be symbolically violating Jesus I'm confident he's not actually harmed, so common sense tells me that the Communion isn't literally part of his body.

Is a sacrificial animal harmed by what you do to its flesh after the sacrifice? And yet that is clearly its body that youre eating. I dont think theres anything contradictory about it being both Jesus flesh and not part of his current living body. And since its apparently fine that heaven is made from divine matter thats invisible, I dont think the lack of apparent changes is a problem either.

Certainly some people do that. I think personally seeing and maybe interacting with a semi-important piece of Gods history can have a big impact on someone. Its not separate in the sense that its an inevitable part of whatever happened to and with it in the first place. Visiting the holy land is similar, and propably seems less idolatrous.

Sure, that's fair. I guess I just get an idolatrous vibe from it, but there's nothing objectively wrong per se.

And since its apparently fine that heaven is made from divine matter thats invisible, I dont think the lack of apparent changes is a problem either.

My source on this is solely D&C 131:7-8

There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes.

We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

So I need to correct myself--actually heaven should not be invisible at all, at least not for that reason. It's just spirit matter that's imperceptible, not perfected normal matter.

Is a sacrificial animal harmed by what you do to its flesh after the sacrifice? And yet that is clearly its body that youre eating. I dont think theres anything contradictory about it being both Jesus flesh and not part of his current living body. And since its apparently fine that heaven is made from divine matter thats invisible, I dont think the lack of apparent changes is a problem either.

Thanks, this makes a lot more sense to me.

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