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Everyone always forgets the Orthodox, just because they are more spiritual/mystic and far far away …
The Orthodox also hold to both scripture and tradition (and recognize ecclesiastical (not theological) supremacy of the Pope if the schism is mended), so this points to this being the correct position instead of sola scriptura.
The Mormon hierarchy being effective(?) and therefore true is a novel point, but on an emotional level I prefer religion being a bit shrouded in mystery and vague and having thousands of years of wobbly-wobbly history with burning of incense, while Mormonism and Joseph Smith is too modern-american-conman-heretical-cult-constructed for my liking.
The Eastern and Western wings of the Church may disagree profoundly on many matters, but I think we both agree about a guy who said God is an astronaut 😁
As a band, though, they're excellent.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you believe:
We (members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) agree on points 1 and 2 but not 3. Heaven is instead a physical place that exists in our universe. Some places are physically closer to it, others physically farther. It's imperceptible to us due to some fundamental characteristics of spirit matter (which has interesting implications for dark matter, which we cannot detect except through its influence on gravity) but definitely exists in our universe. (EDIT: this last sentence is not correct--heaven e.g. God's dwelling place is not purely spiritual, and thus not imperceptible, at least not for that reason)
I get that it's seen as heretical to believe God has a physical body and that all things spiritual are physical too. But please don't boil it down to "God is an astronaut," which greatly demeans him in my eyes. I would never call your idea of God a Planeswalker just because you believe he travels between dimensions.
This is also a caricature of the Orthodox view on God. That being said, the Orthodox have little problem connecting the spiritual and the physical.
My admittedly limited understanding is that Mormonism literally believes in God the Father having a basically human physical body though...
The only part of what I said that I can see as a caricature is calling heaven a "dimension". Which, I mean, it is, right? You can say something like "the real heaven is way holier and more profound than the crass connotations of the word 'dimension'" but fundamentally it does match the definition.
Were you talking about the "all things spiritual are physical too"? I wasn't trying to caricature Orthodox beliefs there--that's an LDS belief. We essentially believe that nothing is not made of matter. Spirits are made of spirit matter which may well be composed of spirit atoms. There's not necessarily a fundamental difference between spirit matter and regular matter either.
Yes we believe God the Father has a perfected human physical body. The exact details, like whether he has blood, or is made of atoms, are unknown, but you have it right.
My impression is that most Christian sects find the physical fundamentally distasteful. Jesus' current physical body is de-emphasized. The final resurrection is de-emphasized--most people sort of see heaven as a place we go when we die, and the resurrection as an afterthought. Heaven is seen as a place wholly empty of physical matter, except perhaps for Jesus' body, which is the only thing in the entire realm with a physical form. God the Father having a physical body is seen as worse or inferior somehow than him not having a body.
We see this aversion to physical matter as an artifact of Gnosticism which made its way into the Catholic church over the centuries.
This leads to much deeper theological differences--like ancient Jews, we do not believe in creation ex nihilo. We don't believe God can violate physical laws--though the true laws of physics may be quite a bit different/deeper than what humanity has discovered so far. We don't believe in a God "by definition"--God doesn't need to be the Greatest Conceivable Thing in order to be God. (He may well be, but it's not necessary).
Does the Orthodox church not have this attitude towards the physical?
I dont think the Father is non-physical because its "better". I think its a continuation of jewish belief, and continues to draw some justification from the (reduced) image prohibition.
I wonder what you think of the Real Presence and relics? They seem in a similar spirit as physical resurrection to me.
Relics I pretty much think of as superstition. I'm not against the idea of holy objects or corpses, but relics imo verge into idol worship, where they seem to have power of their own. Even if Stephen was blessed for his faith, I'm not sure Stephen's fibula was blessed in the same way, and I especially don't think I'll be blessed for revering his fibula or carrying it around. It seems like a distraction pulling one away from Christ.
I've never really understood the Real Presence. It sounds like it means the bread and wine are literally Jesus' body in some sense, but in what sense? Clearly they don't actually physically become flesh and blood at any point--we would know if they did. I'm also sure that people have done unsavory things to bread and wine post-blessing, and while that may be symbolically violating Jesus I'm confident he's not actually harmed, so common sense tells me that the Communion isn't literally part of his body.
The physical resurrection has a strong biblical foundation. I'd argue Christ made a concerted effort to teach his apostles specifically that the resurrection was both real and physical. As I said elsewhere:
I guess you could see this as a "spiritual" resurrection, but then, what's the difference between a resurrected spirit body capable of eating food and otherwise interacting directly with matter, and a physical body? And why does the stipulation that the resurrection is non-physical matter so much, if these bodies possess important physical characteristics?
To be clear, Im in favour of all three points. I dont want to say agree, since Im an atheist and that would make it even weirder than it already is, but Im anti-gnostic.
Certainly some people do that. I think personally seeing and maybe interacting with a semi-important piece of Gods history can have a big impact on someone. Its not separate in the sense that its an inevitable part of whatever happened to and with it in the first place. Visiting the holy land is similar, and propably seems less idolatrous.
Is a sacrificial animal harmed by what you do to its flesh after the sacrifice? And yet that is clearly its body that youre eating. I dont think theres anything contradictory about it being both Jesus flesh and not part of his current living body. And since its apparently fine that heaven is made from divine matter thats invisible, I dont think the lack of apparent changes is a problem either.
Sure, that's fair. I guess I just get an idolatrous vibe from it, but there's nothing objectively wrong per se.
My source on this is solely D&C 131:7-8
So I need to correct myself--actually heaven should not be invisible at all, at least not for that reason. It's just spirit matter that's imperceptible, not perfected normal matter.
Thanks, this makes a lot more sense to me.
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