TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
No bio...
User ID: 616
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
1d ago
I think it's telling that I literally don't think I'm being treated like a psychological equal and rational agent, and the response from you guys is, "cost of doing business in any space where saying negative things about women isn't a Thought Crime." This has nothing to do with saying negative things about women, and everything about being treated as a person on equal terms with any of you men. This kind of treatment is dehumanizing.
Look Tyrian I really truly feel for you here, and trust me I wish this place was less misogynistic too. I regularly fight against the posters that shout "ALL WOMEN ARE EVIL" and try to provide more nuance. I do wish you would stay and present the feminine perspective.
But I have to say - what you're experiencing is what it's like to be a man trying to discuss anything in the mainstream discourse nowadays. It might be cliche to say it, but again the reason so much misogyny erupts in forums like this is that if you are a man trying to talk about your issues in the modern world, you get absolutely eviscerated by most folks. Other men call you weak if you try to talk about emotions or problems, women call you privileged and basically tell you to suck it up because women have it worse.
Things are moving in the right direction I think with more mens' issues becoming talked about, but growing up as a young man in the 90s and 2000s was absolutely brutal for a variety of reasons. I know women have issues too, but at least women can feel at home in their culture complaining about their problems and the other sex. Men do not have that luxury.
So when I respond with things like:
cost of doing business in any space where saying negative things about women isn't a Thought Crime.
What I'm trying to get across is that yes, it's awful that there is misogyny in this place and women are treated as less than equal. Frankly in my personal opinion, I think users like you and @2rafa are some of the most quality contributors we have.
At the same time though, I can't help but empathize with the angry young men that come here and spew their venom. I was in their place a decade ago, and it's not a pretty place to be in. When you're suffering terribly, and you can't find any sort of comfort or even basic recognition that your suffering is valid, it makes sense that you lash out. Especially when the only groups that will give you the time of day espouse that type of rhetoric.
I get that you're leaving, but I hope that you can understand the type of vitriol you've been subjected to here isn't about you in particular. It's about young men dealing with massive emotional issues who haven't had the ability, compassion, or grace to overcome them. That's partly on them, but it's on our society too and especially the women that ridicule and demean young men.
Anyway, I know you don't particularly want or care for my justifications, but I hope any other women reading this and thinking about leaving see that there are at least some posters here that don't appreciate the misogyny either, and are trying to soften the harsh edges.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
2d ago
Hmm I'm starting to think we've gone over this before...
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
2d ago
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
2d ago
The ability to never be happy, to be so totally indifferent to success AND failure, to possess such an invincible armor of narcissism.
Lmao this is beautifully put. Never been more simultaneously proud of and disgusted with my own country. We truly are a rare breed.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
2d ago
I don't remember the credit hours, but I basically did the bare minimum to graduate with a history degree and then bail the fuck out. By the time I was in my fourth year I had realized that the academic world is so corrupt it's pointless to try and 'learn' anything there, at least in the humanities.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
2d ago
Ohhh I see, yeah. Eh at this point it's just the cost of doing business in any space where saying negative things about women isn't a Thought Crime. Of course we're gonna attract a lot of incels and women haters, but needs must when the devil drives.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
2d ago
Hah you're way over my head with your fancy talk bud. Gonna have to break that one down for me.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
2d ago
Interesting. I know several in my personal life. I don't know the stats off the top of my head, but it seems to me that the modal young man in America is far less outgoing and just generally capable than in the last few generations.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
2d ago
In Song's defense, did she mention anything about downvotes?
And hell I don't even check my scores unless I get replied 24 hours later. Then again I'm somehow pretty popular around here so... brushes imaginary dirt off shoulder
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
2d ago
I don't have a well thought out justification, but I have to put in the inevitable vote for Rich Men North of Richmond. It's blatantly political!
It certainly captures the down on your luck rural underdog vibe you mention, but is admittedly less optimistic.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
2d ago
This comment was a hell of a ride. Now I'm just imaging 12 year old vikings running around drunk on vodka.
Dogs have weaker livers than humans WRT alcohol and 40 lb rescues can drink whole cans of beer without passing out.
Why do you know this???? lol
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
2d ago
I think even on this forum most people would find that interpretation highly dubious.
Stop with the consensus building.
I think the point you're missing here is that 2rafa isn't arguing this is a rational, logical, well thought out strategy by these young women. She's trying to give you an idea of why, from a hidden incentives standpoint, young western women are pushed to act in these ways.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
2d ago
I appreciate you always giving a rigorous defense of women when these sexual marketplace topics get brought up. I may not always agree, but it's a needed service! I rarely see these arguments being made anywhere, unfortunately.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
2d ago
You don't think men have degenerated? Why not?
You see the cohorts of NEETs and don't think that means degeneration? I'm surprised at this coming from you Nybbler.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
2d ago
Hah, I continue to find it fascinating how so many folks in the Motte/rationalist sphere underestimate the intelligence of the average person, or hell even the above average person.
The people that are capable of having conversations like these on sensitive topics without foaming at the mouth rabidly are a few percentage points, at most.
Lord, selection effects are terrifyingly powerful things.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
2d ago
The problem is most HBDers that are willing to talk about it online are the type of folks who understand that HBD is somewhat real, and then they see absolutely everything through that lens. The people here on the Motte are actually quite reasonable about HBD in my view.
But in the wastes of the internet outside our walled garden... well, when you have a hammer as powerful and covered up as HBD, what isn't a nail?
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
2d ago
Thanks for pointing this out. Land here articulates very well something I've been trying to understand for quite a while.
A more simplified way to put it in my view, would be to say that statistical analysis and the scientific method more generally are best used as limited tools. Unfortunately these tools were so mind-bogglingly, world-shatteringly powerful our ancestors couldn't help but violently wrench the entirety of human society to serve the tools, and make them more effective. Now we can't even use the tools properly, because the masses of society don't understand that these methods aren't the exact same thing as divine messengers serving up Truth from the heavens.
And so the wheel turns. At least soon we'll have artificial intelligence to turn the wheel for us.
I'll preface this with the fact that I don't have any children either. I'm sure that would affect things.
That being said, from an objective standpoint I think that I could stomach a suitable hero (i.e. Elon Musk) coupling with my daughter if the right story were told about it. If he launched the first rocket into orbit that prevented his company from bankruptcy, and my daughter was at the afterparty, and one thing led to another, et cetera...
This poor rendition of a hero's journey highlights the problem we have in modern times. Even the most credulous and serious depiction of a hero's journey struggles to recapture the gravitas of a story told over a campfire many nights between a group of individuals that have known each other most of their lives. We humans were built to tell stories around campfires, that's where so much of our modern culture evolved from.
Clearly with the pace of modern times, we can't create stories with the same weight, or at least we haven't figured out the trick yet.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
3d ago
Is it often misguided, does it often harm innocents, does it broadly fail to present viable alternatives, is it still trapped inside liberal ideology? Of course - it represents a dynamic rage, it is largely impotent, those supporting it have little understanding of the real material causes of their suffering.
I can agree with this point, that broadly the MeToo movement exists due to sexual excesses of the sexual revolution. I can even agree that it's due to rage. But I still find it extremely troubling. I suppose it depends on where you see society heading due to the current proceedings.
But, as @iprayiam3 says, that does not mean it is insincere. And so-called conservatives who spend their time defending lotharios and cads are essentially liberals on this issue, no different to those defending ‘drag queen story hour’ or teenage transition.
I absolutely disagree with this characterization. It has long been a staple of archetypal stories that heroic men with high status can sleep around with pretty much whoever they want, get applauded for it, and fail to have any consequences. It was even common in Christian societies, although the Catholics did tend to have a dimmer view of lotharios. They were anomalous in quite a few respects. (Nowadays they've lost their distinctness because their peculiar outlook has become the mainstream view, imo)
Now I still think that heroes sleeping around with virgins all across society can be bad, unless you have very few heroes who unambiguously do good things. These frail half-men 'pseuds' we have nowadays that have usurped the place and status the hero used to occupy are far from any sort of moral ideal, however.
If a man truly does beat back the chaotic flood, saves society, and pushes us forward into a golden age - he can sleep around as much as he wants, as far as I'm concerned. If Elon Musk wants to sow his wild oats, well, I don't see much wrong with that.
But the Russell Brands of the world are one of the most telling signs that the way our society doles out status is sick. Absolutely rotten.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
3d ago
Ahh interesting. My pedantry has been one-upped I see. This time.... >:)
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
3d ago
Nihilism only denies objective morality, you can have your subjective one and cling on to it like a limpet, and you might as well because there isn't anything better.
My understanding is that nihlism rejects all meaning, including personal values, no?
What you're describing sounds more like existentialism.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
3d ago
It's crazy how far things have swung in just 15 years.
Imagine where we might go in another 15...
The more I see of the modern political landscape, the more I want to advocate for a gradualist approach. At least for social conventions and laws, if not for technology. Then again I would sacrifice the measly technological gains we've made in the past 15 years to go back to that time period from a social and legal standpoint. ChatGPT is amazing, but not worth it.
Agreed, and there are some genuinely brilliant people doing research in the humanities. Unfortunately trying to get to those specific professors typically requires a massive amount of networking and knowing very early on in your college career that you need to angle for that sort of thing, because the competition is massive.
Either that, or you are able to spend an extra year or two in undergrad building your network due to family money etc etc.
In terms of being extremely lazy at self-directed learning... I don't know. I think autodidacts, the type of person these discussion spaces typically attracts, are extremely rare and abnormal in the grand scheme of things. It's good that modern society gives us opportunities, but I hesitate to call people that need the structure of a college curriculum "extremely lazy." I think there's maybe 1% of adults in the West that can legitimately learn a significant amount about serious topics on their own, and I wouldn't be surprised if the distribution were even smaller than that.
I'll throw in though that a large part of the issues is the way our schooling works. Standardized public education in the US at least is pretty brutally effective at shutting down the curiosity of passionate young children.
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