This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
The vile part is the guilt transference. Christianity doesn't say that everyone's guilty but god forgives them anyway (not that I don't think original sin is a pretty vile concept as well), christianity says that god can forgive us because he transferred our just punishment by torturing Jesus to death (though he got better). That Jesus dying for other peoples sins is a meaningful moral concept.
If the mother of a criminal to be executed says "No, take me instead!", the official who says "Ok, sure" and executes the mother is an injust tyrant, regardless of how much genuine repentance the criminal feels afterwards.
Ah, I see. You could call it selfless love, though, from Jesus' perspective? I guess I understand how you'd think from a judgement of God the Father's perspective that seems kind of messed up.
Answers obviously vary, but my own religion (LDS/Mormon) actually has a bit of a different view in that God obeys certain laws, and among them are that sinful people literally cannot enter heaven. In our setup, there was basically a big meeting before the Earth was created where everyone already existed, and God proposed a plan for human growth and development, including obtaining physical bodies and learning to overcome temptation. Jesus volunteered to overcome death and make it possible there, and we all also agreed to participate. Thus it's not all about sin directly, it's more about growth, and if you don't grow enough you don't quite go to hell either - you just go to a place where you feel most comfortable, with people of a similar level of purity and goodness together, and sinful-character people wouldn't feel comfortable in God's direct presence. That is to say as well, the Fall and its consequences wasn't a disaster, but a pre-planned opportunity to propel directional growth. I got off topic but in that perspective God is quite literally constrained to set it up this way rather than making a deliberate choice to torture his son to death. In fact, we move the "main event" to the garden of Gethsemane rather than the cross for much this same reason, emphasizing the elective nature of it while the cross is more about the victory over death (why the cross is not used, we view the resurrection as also more important than the crucifixion). Thus it's not purely legalistic, but rather a setup that allows mercy to assist with the innate natural spiritual consequences of bad/immoral choices, while also allowing for true moral agency to exist. Although the details can vary significantly, there are other evangelicals who believe something similar and more in line with what you describe, that sin literally requires punishment, so Jesus was performing a kind of legal act in assuming the sin. You're right that some related framings there indicate God defines what is good and bad, it's not independent, which might be more problematic in that context.
This isn't universal across Christianity, I should note: some sidestep the whole issue and never address if Jesus' suffering was actually necessary or view it as strictly inspirational, others don't think the cross was about guilt at all, but in fact was breaking the power of death as a kind of liberation (forgiveness is free more independently of Jesus), and still others think the cross was more about God identifying with humanity as an act of ultimate empathy (I think Eastern Orthodox is roughly those last two, though I'm sure our motte residents could tell you more).
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link