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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   3877 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for November 20, 2022

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

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Wouldn't domestication proceed by subtle neurological changes, rather than bulk physical ones? Genetic variation in temperament exists, and wouldn't selection on that make much more sense than head-shape?

False dichotomy bordering on the absurdity heuristic; subtle changes in cell behavior may be evolutionarily easy to reach (particularly on timescales he discusses, i.e. dozens of generations) though selection on pathways that affect embryonic cell migration and, say, characteristic relative white matter tract lengths and thus gross anatomy, and not strictly on microscopic scale; and indeed, if head shape as such is not being strongly selected upon, it can be thrown around by apparently unrelated pressures. Specifically, domestication syndrome in animals corresponds to allometric cranial changes; there is a (fairly contested) model attributing it to neural crest alterations.

For all I know, within-population temperamental variation is still linked to head shape in the way he describes. I admit I haven't checked.

Spain and italy don't have significantly lower national IQs than norway/UK/germany/france (according to lynn 2010, 98/97 vs 99/100

According to Lynn, speaking of Italy as a coherent population with some average IQ is very misguided, Sicilians don't even crack 90 while Northerners get to 103. I am not sure about Spain but it does seem to me that, indeed, an average native German is more than 1 point above a Spaniard, and Scandis are obviously not «99/100». In at least one large sample of elderly Western Europeans, there is a gamut of over 1 SD in «categorical fluency» and «episodic memory» task performances. (Admittedly, contra Uriah, they are correlated).

4 points aren't nothing on the population level.

Why you say this is explained by migration is beyond me; migration can explain many distributions, but that's a minor elaboration on selection.

generally intelligence isn't just made up of 'memory', but much more complicated

Sure, but come on now, he doesn't assert that it is.

I couldn't figure out what 'oceanic quivering' is by searching 'from:crimkadid' on twitter so idk.

https://twitter.com/crimkadid/status/1264785819870601216

First paragraph - true, it's a bad objection to something with good evidence, but I think it's a stronger point against brachycephalization theory than the evidence I've seen for it. And when I tried to read more about it, I got more confused - see this thread where - germans are domesticated/brachycephalic, swedes aren't - he claims this impacts "national character", but I can't think of any strong psychological differences between swedes and germans, let alone those large enough to support that theory.

Scandis are obviously not «99/100

I was citing this lynn paper, which has norway as 100, sweden as 99, and denmark as 98!

Probably a fair point about italy, but I'm not sure if the genetics of north italians match the hypothesis.

Sure, but come on now, he doesn't assert that it is.

Well, what I mean is that "episodic vs stamp collecting" will not explain a significant fraction of variation in either 'total amount of' or type of intelligence, because both the 'hard part' of intelligence is orthogonal to that, and the hard part is deeply intertwined with memory. This kind of thing is a constant, historically - people are willing to believe many varieties of strange about 'intelligence', what contributes to intelligence, types of intelligence, etc. And claims like "This difference in memory accounts for the difference in interests: Jews like politics, finance, the law, the real, present world. Northwest Europeans prefer history, fantasy, nerdy stamp collecting and the pursuit of meaningless knowledge for its own sake." are total nonsense then. (Jews are also incredibly interested in meaningless knowledge, fantasy, history, nerdy stuff - also math science arts etc)

see this thread where - germans are domesticated/brachycephalic, swedes aren't - he claims this impacts "national character", but I can't think of any strong psychological differences between swedes and germans, let alone those large enough to support that theory.

Well to begin with, Swedes have like zero hardcore authoritarian tradition, and are markedly less anal/conscientious/workaholic, about equal in psychological intenseness (mild) but less conformist, and have better taste and manners but worse engineering? That's just my gut feeling.

Let me check: according to Hofstede, they actually differ. Near-equal Individualsm, somewhat greater (but still on the lower side) Power Distance in Germans, everything else is totally dissimilar. Germans score 66 on Masculinity and Swedes 5 (that's the lowest score among all surveyed countries! By the way: Norway 8, Netherlands 14, Denmark 16, France 43, UK 66). 65 vs 29 on Uncertainty Avoidance, Germans score 30 points more on Long-Term Orientation, and ~40 points less on indulgence. Not sure how this translates to individual distributions, and Hofstede is probably obsolete, you could try to find better comparisons, I believe the pattern will remain directionally correct because it jives with what I know of Sweden and Germany, and Germans and Swedes.

They are of course very close genetically. And it may be that race science bros are hallucinating distinctions. But given that this almost Hakan-tier nuanced speculation was popular with people who also noticed currently verified continental-level trends, and that people most obsessed with dunking on them also deny continental-level trends... I'd urge to consider that perhaps some of us are just better at noticing fine shades of national characters, be they genetically or just culturally mediated.

How much life they have underneath this apathy, how much cheerfulness, playfulness! Heaps of ability, of talent - all this can be seen in little things, in idle conversation, but it can also be seen that there is only no content, that all of their life's own forces have boiled over, burned out, and require new, refreshing beginnings. The Japanese are very lively and natural; they have few absurdities of the Chinese sort; for example, that heavy, pedantic, obsolete and unnecessary scholarship which only makes people stupid. On the contrary, they inquire into everything, ask about everything, and write it all down. Almost all of the Dutch travelers who have been to Edo say that the Japanese have purposely sent to them their scientists, to borrow something new and useful. Meanwhile, the Chinese scholar does not even dare to express his thought in a lively, common language: it is forbidden; he must express himself as is shown in books. If the Japanese stick to the old, it is only out of fear of the new, even though they are convinced that the new is better. They themselves feel bored and yawn, whereas the Chinese, according to stories, have none of this. Decidedly the Japanese are the French, the Chinese are the Germans of this realm.

Goncharov, 1855. I remember this giving me pause.

claims like "This difference in memory accounts for the difference in interests: Jews like politics, finance, the law, the real, present world. Northwest Europeans prefer history, fantasy, nerdy stamp collecting and the pursuit of meaningless knowledge for its own sake." are total nonsense then. (Jews are also incredibly interested in meaningless knowledge, fantasy, history, nerdy stuff - also math science arts etc)

People with high IQ produce prominent individuals in all fields. Not in visual arts though: I believe there does not exist a single genius-level Ashkenazi painter (I love Levitan), especially if we remove critic-driven gallery art. Like, what, Chagall? No, some of his stuff is good, he's not Joan Miró, but... So there is a big difference in major subfactors of intelligence, at least. And I think SBF and MacAskill are a fine pair to illustrate how this «fantasy vs finance» isn't nonsense.

But that'd be more anecdata.

What about distributions and ratios? It's a serious question. What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, of course. But nuh-uh-ing a schizoposter is boring.

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