I was refering to people who thought CP 2077, a game made by the people who made the wticher games, rpgs.... was going to be some next level rampage simulator where you hire prostitutes then murder them to get your money back.
A lot of the backlash to CP 2077 was people who the marketing campaign had trained to think it'd be GTA... but in the future and with a full cybernetically customizable character.
I'm not even that fond of Rockstar personally. Their worlds always felt dull and uninteresting once you got past the initial jokes.
.
My contention isn't love of the tabletop rpg is what drives the continued interest in the world. Its that CDPR and StudioTrigger's close hewing to Pondsmith's rules of storytelling and aethetic commitments is what drives their success.
The franchise is remarkably consistent in resisting every temptation of bad modern storytelling/superhero bullshit that defines basically every other franchise, and instead hewing to Pondsmith's original narrative commitments.
I'm not even that fond of Rockstar personally. Their worlds always felt dull and uninteresting once you got past the initial jokes.
Feel the same. Don't understand the hype behind any Rockstar game's story and aesthetics. It always feels like they're trying to be Tarantino but then, they also want to be taken seriously like some top HBO drama.
Always comes off as inauthentic and shallow.
For example, in Red Dead 2, I remember the mission where you help the Native Americans fight off US soldiers and it's like....this is no different than some goober saying they would've stood up to Hitler in Nazi Germany. It's moral wish fulfillment and retrospective snobbery. In reality, if they wanted to make it more meaningful, they should have it as a 'you can't win' type scenario where you try to help Natives set up their society but either you help them and die in battle OR you sell them out so that your gang can survive. Then, maybe you can make it even somewhat morally complex here with, say, a former Confederate soldier type character who hates the Union to this day and though he may be racist or whatever, owes his life to Confederate aligned Natives who saved him during the war and therefore, empathizes with and respects Natives. That would add weight to the situation, at hand.
But games by Rockstar (and much of modern writing) feature none of this type of writing and nuance.
That's why I think Cyberpunk and CDPR is superior here. As Pondsmith says, the goal of Cyberpunk isn't about saving the world, it's about saving your soul. It reflects a more 'realistic' outlook as you deal with entities beyond your control that work against your sense of agency. That doesn't mean you don't fight for what you believe in within the Cyberpunk/CDPR universe but rather, for a 'serious' oriented story about the human condition, there isn't a wish fulfillment power fantasy thing dictating the events in your story. Sure, in game, Geralt or V can fight off 30 people at once but it's not central to the narrative that Geralt or V fights off an entire army and changes the world.
Now, I'm not saying power fantasy games or stories shouldn't exist. No, they can be equally as good but just don't pretend they're something they're not.
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I was refering to people who thought CP 2077, a game made by the people who made the wticher games, rpgs.... was going to be some next level rampage simulator where you hire prostitutes then murder them to get your money back.
A lot of the backlash to CP 2077 was people who the marketing campaign had trained to think it'd be GTA... but in the future and with a full cybernetically customizable character.
I'm not even that fond of Rockstar personally. Their worlds always felt dull and uninteresting once you got past the initial jokes.
.
My contention isn't love of the tabletop rpg is what drives the continued interest in the world. Its that CDPR and StudioTrigger's close hewing to Pondsmith's rules of storytelling and aethetic commitments is what drives their success.
The franchise is remarkably consistent in resisting every temptation of bad modern storytelling/superhero bullshit that defines basically every other franchise, and instead hewing to Pondsmith's original narrative commitments.
Feel the same. Don't understand the hype behind any Rockstar game's story and aesthetics. It always feels like they're trying to be Tarantino but then, they also want to be taken seriously like some top HBO drama.
Always comes off as inauthentic and shallow.
For example, in Red Dead 2, I remember the mission where you help the Native Americans fight off US soldiers and it's like....this is no different than some goober saying they would've stood up to Hitler in Nazi Germany. It's moral wish fulfillment and retrospective snobbery. In reality, if they wanted to make it more meaningful, they should have it as a 'you can't win' type scenario where you try to help Natives set up their society but either you help them and die in battle OR you sell them out so that your gang can survive. Then, maybe you can make it even somewhat morally complex here with, say, a former Confederate soldier type character who hates the Union to this day and though he may be racist or whatever, owes his life to Confederate aligned Natives who saved him during the war and therefore, empathizes with and respects Natives. That would add weight to the situation, at hand.
But games by Rockstar (and much of modern writing) feature none of this type of writing and nuance.
That's why I think Cyberpunk and CDPR is superior here. As Pondsmith says, the goal of Cyberpunk isn't about saving the world, it's about saving your soul. It reflects a more 'realistic' outlook as you deal with entities beyond your control that work against your sense of agency. That doesn't mean you don't fight for what you believe in within the Cyberpunk/CDPR universe but rather, for a 'serious' oriented story about the human condition, there isn't a wish fulfillment power fantasy thing dictating the events in your story. Sure, in game, Geralt or V can fight off 30 people at once but it's not central to the narrative that Geralt or V fights off an entire army and changes the world.
Now, I'm not saying power fantasy games or stories shouldn't exist. No, they can be equally as good but just don't pretend they're something they're not.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link