This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
You're allowed to judge people. The reasonable and equanimous thing to do is to determine whether your judgment is actually rational or merely a prejudice.
At one time, a prejudice against tattoos was rational because it really was only criminals and prostitutes and peripatetic sailors and vagabonds and the like who got them, let alone displayed them brazenly. So it was reasonable to assume a tattoo signified someone you likely did not want to associate with.
Nowadays, it's increasingly becoming a default fashion accessory of the young. So it really doesn't tell you much except "This person is of a generation that finds this acceptable." You can still be prejudiced against it because you don't like it and you grew up disliking tattoos, but you can't reasonably make much of a moral judgment about them (you can't even really predict anymore from tattoos alone whether or not someone is a conservative Christian, for example).
Arguably tattoos are permanent markings on your body that indicate short time preference and poor aesthetic taste, but I think this is pretty weak when you're talking about something that is widely accepted by society. You can dislike that society has changed, but then you're just judging someone for not resisting social change in exactly the way you want them to.
Most of your other examples are either aesthetic judgments (you can think chewing tobacco is gross, and it's certainly a gross and unhealthy and unfeminine habit) though some probably do signal a certain culture or mindset (blue hair, septum piercings, mohawks).
People are allowed to make superficial aesthetic judgments. I just think you shouldn't try to rationalize it with some reason why actually this is a very reliable predictor of whether or not someone is a good or smart person or even politically aligned with you.
Chewing tobacco where I am specifically indicates to me that someone works manual labor (industrial or agricultural) and they probably own a truck. At both universities I attended, I don't think I ever saw anyone who chewed while I was on campus.
Fair. I do think it indicates something in every case, but the signal is noisy enough that it's definitely not a very reliable indicator of bad things. I think even unreliable indicators can be useful, but it's not a smoking gun. Pretty much nothing is. That's partly why I wrote such a long list. Used in concert, you can tell a lot about someone just from how they look, even if it's "just" superficial.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link