This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
That poses the question on the other end, though, if destroying the Mona Lisa was worth it if it serves to expose the ignoble lie that Miles, and not Andi, was the one who created the Billion-dollar company.
You should therefore, at least, empathize with Helen's position where she was literally standing there watching people fabricate a reality around her which wasn't even the best for her in any way. A bunch of enemies conspiring to fool everyone else in order to keep their status quo.
This seems like the ultimate issue with the "torture vs. dust specks" comparison, though. Which principles are we committed enough to that we could justify destroying a priceless cultural artifact? Destroying the artifact causes small discomfort to millions or billions, but not destroying it leaves one person in extreme despair.
If the argument is that we should never destroy cultural artifacts then okay... but does that mean it is okay to allow thieves and murderers to lie their way out of punishment, and to maintain fabulous wealth in exchange for such a principle?
I have not watched this movie so I can't comment on this.
Sure, if that was happening I oppose those people.
The question of whether it's worth it to destroy an artifact for some unit of utility and the question of whether it's justifiable to lie about it to mitigate that utility loss are very different. I don't have a strong opinion on what someone would need to trade the Mona Lisa for in order for it to be reasonable. Consulting the market value of the Mona Lisa($900 Million at last sale but probably much more) and givewell's estimate at the cost of saving a marginal life $4-20k seems like quite a few lives if one were to naively do the math, not that I think that is a very good idea but it's the kind of maneuver you commit yourself to when you try to base everything in the utilitarian arguments. And it's totally useless at comparing something not so easily quantified like the value of truth to a society.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link