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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   27867 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 26, 2022

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The point can be made without bringing Lincoln into it. If you were to poll liberals and ask "Nation A finds out their neighbor Nation B is has been raiding and enlsaving members of a foreign nation. Do you think it is morally acceptable for Nation A to invade and annex B in order to prevent this from occuring?" My priors here are that you'd get an overwhelming yes, in direct contradiction to the claim Steffari made.

Don't project lack of principles onto other people with this sort of flat characterization.

Sorry, I meant the general you, since you are arguing on behalf of a society that does think those things. I don't doubt that your personal views are more nuanced. What I don't understand about your point of view is whether you believe secession was simply the incorrect mechanism for the Southerners to use or if you hold a more general stance that the Southerners should not be allowed to self govern (but the Ukranians can).

The point can be made without bringing Lincoln into it. If you were to poll liberals and ask "Nation A finds out their neighbor Nation B is has been raiding and enlsaving members of a foreign nation. Do you think it is morally acceptable for Nation A to invade and annex B in order to prevent this from occuring?" My priors here are that you'd get an overwhelming yes, in direct contradiction to the claim Steffari made.

I don't agree that you'd get an overwhelming yes, and I think the specifics would matter. Liberals might generally be in favor of "armed intervention to prevent slavery," but they tend to be against "invasion and annexation."

What I don't understand about your point of view is whether you believe secession was simply the incorrect mechanism for the Southerners to use or if you hold a more general stance that the Southerners should not be allowed to self govern (but the Ukranians can).

I do not think the CSA had a legal right to secede from the United States. I strongly believe all nation states should recognize individual citizens' right of exit, but that doesn't include taking national resources and geographical territory with them.

Your equivalency hinges on Ukraine being legitimately part of Russia and the existence of Ukraine as an independent nation being an act of secession. Again, Putin may see it this way, but I do not see why we should accept Putin's interpretation over that of the Ukrainians. I don't think it's a claim that stands up historically or in material terms.

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